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The Ptolemaic zodiac: from where the sun shines

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Left: Ptolemaic world view, in Andreas Cellarius’ Harmonia Macrocosmica.

We see here how the same dynastic power-brokers in Alexandria who created new philosophies and religions centred on Helios also created the astrological system with the Helios-centric zodiac.

We have seen how the conquests of Alexander the Great brought Hellenisation to Persia, Greco-India and Egypt, and mentioned how this divided society in Judea, which led to a series of wars and ultimately, the destruction of that nation by Hadrian.

We have seen already that the New Testament was created under Hadrian using Flavian sources.

In Greco-India, we have seen Buddhism as a product of Greco-India, the rise of monasteries and their spread along the trade routes, where we also find early synagogues.

Later and in trading posts such as Dura Europos, the earliest churches also appear.

Babylonia or Chaldea in the Hellenistic world came to be so identified with astrology that “Chaldean wisdom” became among Greeks and Romans the synonym of divination through the planets and stars.

Hindu astrology adopted the Hellenistic zodiac during the Seleucid period (2nd to 1st centuries BCE).

Right: Sun dial within two sculpted lion feet, Ai-Khanoum (Alexandria on the Oxus)

The transmission of the zodiac system to Hindu astrology predated widespread awareness of the precession of the equinoxes, and the Hindu system ended up using a sidereal coordinate system (as opposed to the Tropical System followed by the Greeks), which resulted in the European and the Hindu zodiacs, even though sharing the same origin in Hellenistic astrology, gradually moving apart over two millennia that have passed since. The Sanskrit names of the signs are direct translations of the Greek names (dhanus meaning “bow” rather than “archer”, and kumbha meaning “water-pitcher” rather than “water-carrier”).

Jyotisha is the Hindu system of astrology (also known as Indian astrology, Hindu astrology, and of late, Vedic astrology). The documented history of Jyotisha begins with the interaction of Indian and Hellenistic cultures in the Indo-Greek period. The practice of Jyotisha primarily relies on the sidereal zodiac, which is different from the tropical zodiac used in Western astrology in that an ayanamsa adjustment is made for the gradual precession of the vernal equinox.

The oldest astrological treatise in Sanskrit is the Yavanajataka (Sayings of the Greeks), a versification by Sphujidhvaja in 269/270 CE of a now lost translation of a Greek treatise by Yavanesvara during the 2nd century CE under the patronage of the Western Satrap Saka king Rudradaman I. (Mc Evilley “The shape of ancient thought”, p385 (“The Yavanajataka is the earliest surviving Sanskrit text in horoscopy, and constitute the basis of all later Indian developments in horoscopy”, quoting David Pingree The Yavanajataka of Sphujidhvaja p5))

Hellenistic astrology syncretically originated from Babylonian and Egyptian astrology and horoscopic astrology first appeared in Ptolemaic Egypt. This should be seen in the wider perspective, starting with the dream and vaulting ambition of Alexander the Great to merge Greek and Persian societies, then the transmuting effect of Hellenisation within regional, cultural contexts.

The Dendera zodiac is the first known depiction of the classical zodiac of twelve signs:

Egyptian bas-relief from the ceiling of the portico of a chapel dedicated to Osiris in the Hathor temple at Dendera.
This chapel was begun in the late Ptolemaic period; the now-accepted date for the relief is 50 BCE.
On display at the Musée du Louvre, Paris.

The zodiac is a planisphere or map of the stars on a plane projection, showing the 12 constellations of the zodiacal band forming 36 decans of ten days each, and the planets. These decans are groups of first-magnitude stars, used in the ancient Egyptian calendar, which was based on lunar cycles of around 30 days and on the heliacal rising of the star Sothis (Sirius).

Champollion deciphered the names of Tiberius, Claudius, Nero and Domitian on the ceiling of Dendera’s temple, and placed the zodiac in the era of Roman rule over Egypt. (J. G. Honoré Greppo, Essay on the Hieroglyphic System of M. Champollion, Jun., and on the Advantages which it Offers To Sacred Criticism. Saxton & Miles, 1842.)

Ptolemy and Lysimachus are two of the three successors of Alexander the Great and became co-founders of the Ptolemaic dynasty, that ruled Egypt until Alexander Helios and Cleopatra Selene, the twin children of Mark Antony and Cleopatra, were taken as hostages to Antonia Minor.

Particularly important in the development of Western horoscopic astrology was the astrologer and astronomer Ptolemy, whose work Tetrabiblos laid the basis of the Western astrological tradition. Under the Greeks, and Ptolemy in particular, the planets, Houses, and signs of the zodiac were rationalized and their function set down in a way that has changed little to the present day. (Derek and Julia Parker, Parker’s Encyclopedia of Astrology p16, 1990)

Zodiac and months from Tetrabiblos of Ptolemaios
Manuscript from the 8th century CE. Geographia of Ptolemy; Rome, Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana.
Helios in the centre, identified as the Christ by the cross, twelve naked female figures represent the hours, twelve clothed apostles represent the twelve months, and surrounding that the twelve zodiac signs.

In Claudius Ptolemy – a Ptolemy I noted how:

As a member of the same family as Alexander the Alabarch and his son, the merchant Marcus, this need [for celestial navigation] is obvious. The relationship would also provide the means to gain much of his geography and the Hellenistic Babylonian data.

In short, Ptolemy was a Ptolemy and therefore, a Lysimachus.

One Lysimachus of the period is Philo: Philo Judaeus, Philo Judaeus of Alexandria, Yedidia and Philo the Jew. He is described commonly as a Hellenistic Jewish philosopher, in general ignorance of what and who is a Lysimachus. As his philosophy – containing the first christology – is syncretic, so here we see synagogues of the period begin to adopt the Helios zodiac.

Tzippori, or Sepphoris, is located in the central Galilee and after the death of Herod in 4 CE, the inhabitants revolted against Roman rule. Not surprisingly, the city was eventually captured and destroyed. Following this, Herod Antipas, ruler of the Galilee region, set about restoring Tzippori. He spared no expense on restoring and beautifying the city, prompting the Jewish historian Josephus to later call it the “glory of the entire Galilee.”

The mosaic floor of the ancient synagogue was rediscovered in 1993. There is a large Zodiac with the names of the months written in Hebrew. Helios sits in the middle, in his sun chariot.

Four steeds pull the chariot bearing the sun god Helios
Sepphoris synagogue

Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi moved to the city with the Sanhedrin, making it the seat of Jewish religious authority. Rabbi Yehudah completed the codification of the Oral Law into the Mishnah in Tzippori in about the year 200CE and the scholars living in the city participated in the writing of the Jerusalem Talmud.

The Beit Alfa Synagogue is an ancient Byzantine-era synagogue located in Heftziba, at the foot of Mount Gilboa in northern Israel. It was constructed in the 6th century CE and is famous for its mosaic floor which was uncovered in 1928.

Two inscriptions were found on the entryway floor. The Greek inscription is in memory of the artists who made the mosaic, Marianus and his son Hanina. The Aramaic inscription reads:

This mosaic was laid in the year of the reign of Justinian the emperor for the sum of one hundred measures of wheat donated by the people of the village.

The central nave floor is divided into three panels: a depiction of the Binding of Isaac; a representation of the sun pulled by a star chariot surrounded by the constellations and signs of the zodiac; and a tableau representing the Temple of Jerusalem and religious objects associated with Judaism.

Sun god Helios – zodiac of Beit Alpha Synagogue mosaic floor

The zodiac has the names of the twelve signs in Hebrew. In the center is Helios, the sun god, being whisked away in his chariot by four galloping horses. The four women in the corners of the mosaic represent the four seasons.

The most recent zodiac to be discovered is at Hammath-Tiberias.

“Hammath” means “hot springs” and the site is indeed a group of hot springs along the western shore of the Sea of Galilee. The rabbis identified them with the Hammath-Naphtali of Joshua 19: 35.

The place first became important when Herod Antipas founded the city of Tiberias near the springs in 18/19 BCE.

Tiberias was a Hellenistic city, but it also became an important Rabbinic center from the third century CE until 429 CE.

The synagogue with the zodiac is about one mile south of the modern city of Tiberias. Period II holds the zodiac wheel, and received the greatest attention from the excavator. The building which he found is definitely a synagogue, and went through two phases of construction, IIb, the older, and IIa, the younger.

The most striking aspect of the zodiac mosaic at Hammath-Tiberias is its Classical style, forming quite a contrast with the “Oriental” style of the other zodiacs. The iconography is completely in line with the typical Greek portrayals, to the point of including nude, uncircumcised, male figures for Libra and Aquarius.

The image of Sol is particularly interesting. It closely resembles the classical iconography of the cosmocrator. He is shown dressed in Imperial garb, a scarlet paludamentum, with his right hand raised in benediction. His left hand holds a whip, and a globe with two circles crossing. This is probably the spherical universe, with the celestial equator and the ecliptic, symbolizing universal rule. He looks right, and has both rays and a halo around his head. A crescent moon is shown beneath his right arm, and a seven-pointed star beneath his left.

Tiberius Synagogue mosaic zodiac – the inner circle holds Sol Invictus driving his quadriga

The entrance inscriptions are interesting from several points of view. They contain the first epigraphic reference to the Jewish Patriarch.

“Threptos,” literally someone raised in the same family, probably means a member of the Patriarch’s household here, but it is the phrase “most illustrious Patriarchs” which is the key to dating the inscription, and by implication, the zodiac mosaic and phase IIb.

“Lamprotatos” is an official title, the Greek equivalent of the Latin vir clarissimus, the official designation of the lowest of the three senatorial grades. The Patriarchs were not members of the Roman senate, but the Theodosian Code, 16.8.17, issued 392 CE, tells us that the Jewish Patriarch held the legal status of a senator, or a Praetorian Prefect.

That is Rabbinic Judaism, created by the Flavian dynasty and at the behest of the Lysimachus in Alexandria, such as Tiberius Julius Alexander, son of Alexander Lysimachus, nephew of Philo, and who renounced Judaism for the Roman civil service.

In The Gordion Knot of Classical Antiquity, I noted how:

It has become clear that the history of Christianity is founded less in Judea and more in those cities to the north, such as Emesa, Edessa and Adiabene, and to the various Nysa.

Christ within the Zodiac circle
Fresco from the Cathedral of the Living Pillar, Georgia

When archaeologists began uncovering zodiacs in synagogues, there were – naturally – surprised and since then, though the shock has worn off and there has been much scholarly discussion of their meaning, it adds up to very little.

This mystification is due to the wide-ranging character of the forces at work, across time and space from the Indus to the Nile and across centuries, beyond the accepted bounds of Classical Antiquity and encompassing many specialist fields of study.

Christ-Helios at the center of the zodiac (Bibliothéque Nationale)Christ-Helios at the center of the zodiac (Bibliothéque Nationale)

As the opus of Claudius Ptolemy demonstrates, this is astronomy and astrology, geography and mathematics, and similarly with the opus of Philo, is syncretic. Hellenisation embraced more than Persia, but also India, Egypt and – eventually, at enormous cost and with the brute force of Rome – Judea.

Western civilisation is not particularly western and has rarely been civil.

At least we may now know from where the sun shines.

Related posts:

  1. The Royal Library of Alexandria in the first century
  2. The Lysimachus Dynasty
  3. The mystery of early synagogues
  4. Archaeology of Ein Gedi
  5. Lifting the Vaults of Heavenly and Earthly Peace
  6. The god of merchandise
  7. Cleopatra’s legacy: the Sacred Lotus of India
  8. Hadrian’s perverted insanity
  9. The Zen of Buddhist archaeology: earliest texts
  10. Helios and Selene in Alexandria on the Oxus
  11. The Gordion Knot of Classical Antiquity
  12. Mauretanian glassmakers in Roman Britain
  13. The Sun of righteousness
  14. Archaeology of faith and trade
  15. The message of Alexander the Great

5 comments to The Ptolemaic zodiac: from where the sun shines

  • Solomon

    Two other posts seem relevant to this zodiac theme:

    - The god of merchandise
    This is Budha.

    - Three Hares of the Silk Road
    This iconic theme began in China and spread along the trade routes to end up in English churches.

    The Sheng xiao – Chinese Zodiac – is divided into years rather than months, contrary to the association with animals implied in the Greek etymology of “zodiac”, and is not associated with constellations, let alone those spanned by the ecliptic plane.

    In Chinese astrology the animal signs assigned by year represent what others perceive you as being or how you present yourself.

    The 12 animals are also linked to the traditional Chinese agricultural calendar, which runs alongside the better known lunar calendar. Instead of months, this calendar is divided into 24 two week segments known as Solar Terms. Each animal is linked to two of these solar terms for a period similar to the Western month.

    The Rabbit ( ? ) (also translated as Hare) is the fourth animal in the 12-year cycle of the Chinese zodiac.

    Hares are the intuitive diplomats in Chinese Astrology.

    Colour is green (the same as Budha).

    The Chinese zodiac, though not entirely identical with the Greek zodiac, nonetheless shares with it the duodecimal system and the idea of using animals as numerical symbols. This is a hint for the triangular relations between early Chinese, Mesopotamian and Greek cultures.

    When the Bulgars, an early Turkic tribe within the Hun tribal federation that invaded Europe at the end of the Roman Empire, brought with them the very same Chinese zodiac.

    The European Huns used the Chinese Zodiac complete with “dragon”, “pig”. This common Chinese-Turkic Zodiac was in use in Balkan Bulgaria well into the Bulgars’ adoption of Slavic language and Orthodox Christianity.

  • Lancelotto

    Hello Solomon, Philostratus, and Readers,

    Roman Catholicism is but one expression of the complex syncretism of Judaism with Hellenistic religious forms. That its most recent expression is flawed and far from perfect is almost an altruism in the symbolic sense. I do not think that any of the world religions can really come to terms with the present future looming before us unless all of them confront what is really a historical crisis represented by the 1st and 2nd centuries CE. This crisis may be roughly formulated along the troublesome axis of disagreement between the archaeological record for the 1st and 2nd centuries CE and the historical one handed down to posterity via Eusebius and Iranaeus for the same period. Much of what remains to be untangled lies under a thick layer of sediment formed from the residues of struggle for political and economic power: ancient religion merged these spheres of power seamlessly into the fabric of family-client relationships within both the city state and later the empire.

    The struggle however open at times and however seemingly muted in the West continues to this day. For some serious theological perspective on the Catholic Church from the perspective of a personality who knew the current Pope way-back-when, and was in fact his boss way-back-then, here is Hans Kung’s take on modern Catholicism and where it is headed.

    Best – Lancelotto

  • philostratus.the.elder

    Welcome Lancelotto, to this little site and I look forward very much to your contributing more here.

    Your post brings history to the fore and this is our focus:

    “I do not think that any of the world religions can really come to terms with the present future looming before us unless all of them confront what is really a historical crisis represented by the 1st and 2nd centuries CE. This crisis may be roughly formulated along the troublesome axis of disagreement between the archaeological record for the 1st and 2nd centuries CE and the historical one handed down to posterity via Eusebius and Iranaeus for the same period.”

    The archaeological record, as we are trying to present here, shows – I believe – a clash between two very different theological systems:

    1. The Hebrew, based on Yahweh.
    2. The pagan, based on Helios.

    There are countless conflicts between the two, leading to the main three Jewish-Roman wars in the first two centuries of our era.

    Cliff Carrington’s Flavian hypothesis is that this dynasty created Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity, with the purpose of neutralising Messianic Judaism. I accept the general thrust of this, adding:

    a. Vespasian was brought to power by the Lysimachus in Alexandria. (We agree that one of these Lysimachus – Philo – developed the first christology.)
    b. This christology is pagan, Helios-centric and because of the connection between Lysimachus and Alexander the Great, uses the mythology and image of Alexander as Helios.
    c. Domitian seems to change this approach, perhaps even abandoning the project, but in the second century, it is revived, coming to a head with Hadrian. This raises the question: then who carried the project forward, to Hadrian, then carried it forward again, to Constantine? That brings us back to:
    d. The Lysimachus dynasty in Alexandria. Cliff reckons it is a slave, or slaves, who carried forward the Flavian project, but here, we suggest it was the Lysimachus.

    This is all about power and as you say:

    “Much of what remains to be untangled lies under a thick layer of sediment formed from the residues of struggle for political and economic power: ancient religion merged these spheres of power seamlessly into the fabric of family-client relationships within both the city state and later the empire.”

    The Jews lost these wars.

    The Greeks won. The Lysimachus won. The Romans won. Helios became the basis of the new religions and we see this in the images here.

    If this had stayed in the Orient and in Antiquity, none of this would matter very much to a Brit, or American, today. But it didn’t – the winners had Rome and the empire, and from there created what we call now Western Civilisation.

    I should add that the losers didn’t disappear from history either, but fled into Arabia, from where comes Islam.

    Islam is not, now, the faith of the Poor (Ebionites) and contains a lot of Arab mythology and culture. But it does contain a more accurate semblance of Yahweh than the versions formed by the Lysimachus (with Roman support). And there’s the rub: the conflict of the Mid-East today.

    So here we all are, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist and Christian, fighting to keep alive our traditions and faiths, and fighting our corner. Only, all these traditions and faiths contain a host of falsehoods, misinterpretations and misunderstandings.

    My last point is this: are we really the first to see this, or has it always been known and understood? It is a matter of honesty. My own view of this struggle for power is that, as Roman emperors had a public face and different face in private, so Rome ever since has promoted hypocrisy: if you want to place your hands on the levers of power, become a part of the ruling elite, you must accept a false history and act out a faith in which you do not believe.

    We see this in academia, as science works alongside theology and theologians pretend to use the scientific method. We see this in schools, as teachers instruct both empirical thinking and faith. We see this on television, as non-believing politicians attend religious ceremonies and pretend to pray. We have built a world based on hypocrisy.

    Maybe we in the West are doing so well, comparatively, because this dishonesty is needed and good:

    BBC News Monday, 17 May 2010
    Toddlers who lie ‘will do better’
    Toddlers who tell lies early on are more likely to do well later, researchers claim.
    The complex brain processes involved in formulating a lie are an indicator of a child’s early intelligence, they add.

  • Solomon

    The emperor is wearing no clothes!
    The emperor is wearing no clothes!

    That’s what the argument is about really and as Philo suggests, maybe the intelligent ones know better and keep quiet.

  • Lancelotto,

    Let me add my welcome to that of Philo. You write: Roman Catholicism is but one expression of the complex syncretism of Judaism with Hellenistic religious forms. That its most recent expression is flawed and far from perfect is almost an altruism in the symbolic sense.

    Of the many forms this religion took, on which is Western Civilisation based? Roman, I would say and this is not a coincidence, for Rome was the centre of a great empire covering Western Europe. Latin, law, architecture (you see this in most cities and towns across the USA) – our whole outlook – comes from Rome.

    Who has the biggest Church? And Which Church saw us through the Dark Ages – then opposed the Enlightenment? Which Church provides the dogma which drives population growth?

    Whatever role was played by the Greek and Syrian Churches – and we do not have a Syrian Civilisation in the West today – Rome is pre-eminent.

    If you mean by “flaws” in the Roman Church’s “recent expression”, that the errors of recent times are an abberation and that there was some ‘golden age’ in which the Church got it better – sorry, but that is very much not so.

    Christ is a pagan concept, a Greco-Roman construct from Egyptian mythology and the Greek Helios. Maybe the Alexandrians, such as Philo, had an ethical basis – to keep the peace (and so keep themselves rich and powerful) – but I don’t think Hadrian thought that way.

    All the Christian Churches – Roman and Greek and Syrian – have as their foundation a set of contrivances. There is no historical truth, no great moral message in the canonical gospels. There were written to be anti-Jewish and their historical context is the Hitler-like mass murder of Jews – hundreds of thousands of men, women and children.

    Now, if as you suggest, the Churches come to terms with that, what is left? When the foundations of a structure collapse, so does the structure. That’s the end. No revision, no correction – the end.

    As for the earlier history of the Roman Church, that list of bad popes gives a hint.

    European history can be seen as a struggle between Church and State. The Church gives authority to the State and the State rewards the Church with powers. That’s the deal. There is nothing good, or moral about it.

    Today, power is money and money is power, so the Church seems less relevant and therefore less threatening (unless you worry about your kids in the hands of priests and nuns, or AIDS and aid). But in historical terms, money and power was as much in the Church as in the State, and that is what the history of Western culture is all about.

    Today, through first British and now American imperialism, that culture is everywhere. You can buy burgers and pizzas anywhere.

    I very much look forward to your posts, Lancelotto.

  • Solomon

    Zodiac and months from Tetrabiblos of Ptolemaios.

    Helios in the centre, identified as the Christ by the cross, twelve naked female figures represent the hours, twelve clothed apostles represent the twelve months.

    Tom Lehrer, the mathematician and marvellous satirist, expresses my sentiments well:

  • Sovereign

     

    So it isn’t just me who’s laughing!

    The Bad Popes is a 1969 book by E. R. Chamberlin documenting the lives of eight of the most controversial popes (papal years in parentheses):

    • Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.
    • Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
    • Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who “sold” the Papacy.
    • Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante’s Divine Comedy.
    • Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.
    • Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.
    • Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors’ reserves on a single ceremony.
    • Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.

    National treasure Stephen Fry joined provocateur extraordinaire Christopher Hitchens to debate against Ann Widdicome and the Archbishop of Abuja, John Onaiyekan. The topic was ‘Is Catholicism a force for good in the world?’. Needless to say, Hitchens & Fry didn’t think so. Also needless to say, they provided the most convincing arguments of the evening.

    Stephen Fry on Catholicism

    <

  • philostratus.the.elder

    These images do rather tell the story, don’t they?

    I agree, they combine to become something of a corrective for dummies, those termed elsewhere in this forum: the chronically-credulous.

    Mention of which and in continuing with Stephen Fry:

    Stephen Fry on American Cults

  • Sovereign

    Truth or lies?

    Let me tell you what happens when you build your world on shifting sands: when the storm comes, it collapses.

    Always build on true foundations.

    That’s how we are in the mess we’re in, fighting utterly useless wars, surrounded by mass poverty, led by fools and charlatans, as the ecosystem collapses.

    Lies can take you only so far, then comes the punishment. If we don’t deal it out and good conscience fails, nature will do it: that’s the way the world works.

    Archaeologists studying the foundations of these religions – from India to Egypt, China to Rome, keep hitting the wall of tradition, based on lies. That’s why the latest books all cry for revision.

    We live now in a technological world. What happens when this technology is flawed? It crashes – and that’s official.

  • Solomon

    I couldn’t agree more, Sov.

    The question how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? has been used many times as a trite dismissal of medieval angelology in particular, of scholasticism in general, and of particular figures such as Duns Scotus and Thomas Aquinas. (“St. Thomas does not discuss the question “How many angels can dance on the point of a needle?” He reminds us that we must not think of angels as if they were corporeal, and that, for an angel, it makes no difference whether the sphere of his activity be the point of a needle or a continent (Q. lii, a.2).” D.J. Kennedy op cit.))

    Another variety of the question is How Many Angels Can Sit On The Head Of A Pin? In modern usage, this question serves as a metaphor for wasting time debating topics of no practical value. (1. “Supernatural: On the Head of a Pin”. SF Universe (B5Media: Entertainment Channel). 27 Feb 2009. 2. E.D. Hirsch, Jr., Joseph F. Kett, and James Trefil, ed (2002). The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy (Third ed.). Houghton Mifflin Co.)

    That is the nature of theology: discussing in the guise of science a subject for which there is no empirical evidence.

    As long as universities have theological schools, academia is in crisis.

  • Two mosques were targeted in the attacks during Friday prayers

    Mad, bad and dangerous to know

    The lovely Stephen Fry makes a big point about how important it is to accept the sanctity of believing anything. That’s the call of ‘today’, isn’t it, in our liberal democracies, sitting secure (we hope, we blindly believe) at home.

    Today’s news is actually very, starkly different.

    BBC News:

    Pakistan mosque attacks in Lahore kill dozens
    Gunmen have launched simultaneous attacks on two mosques of the minority Ahmadi Islamic sect in Lahore, killing more than 70 people, Pakistani police say.
    It is unclear who carried out the attacks, but suspicion has fallen on the Pakistani Taliban, Ali Dayan Hassan of Human Rights Watch told the BBC.
    Mr Hassan said the worshippers were “easy targets” for militant Sunni groups who consider the Ahmadis to be infidels.

    Bad ideas are dangerous. Bad ideas can kill. People with bad ideas kill regularly very many people because of their bad ideas.

    Bush launches his crusade against the Islamic world. The Pope has heretics burned and tortured. Islam invades the world. Sunni Muslims murder members of the Ahmadi Islamic sect. What’s the difference? The similarity is that the perpetrators have their head full of bad ideas.

    The problem is religious people have a distressing tendency to try to force everyone else to do and be as they want them them to.

    That’s a very bad tendency to have. It is a danger to everyone, everywhere.

    What I do with dangers is get rid of them.

    What we must do with bad ideas is get rid of them.

    That is the purpose of education. Unfortunately, the educational system is often managed by people with bad ideas, mixing religious faith with empirical thinking.

    We have to stop this. Have to – must.

    The question is therefore:  what must we do to get rid of these bad ideas?

    I believe in fighting fire with fire. As a general rule, that works well: do not tolerate intolerance, fight to keep the peace, lock people up to preserve our liberties – that sort of thing.

    There is no faith, no religion, no church, that can be trusted to never become a threat to us, our liberty, our lives even.

    Buddhist monks when the ruled Tibet (thank you China for getting rid of them) were a black-souled lot, violent and dark.

    Those Protestants fleeing Britain to found America were, on the whole, a nasty, violent and bigoted lot (Britain was pleased to see the back of them).

    Another news item today in Britain is a serial killer, who boasted of bringing evil into heaven. His head was full of bad ideas. These people with their bad ideas have to be expunged.

    We have to somehow get rid of them all, from the face of the Earth, and so they don’t come back again.

    It’s time we fought fire with fire.

    Suggestions as to how?

  • Sovereign

    Some might think your views extreme, Driver, but I see where you are coming from: an unjust world that tolerates intolerance, religious fanatics who think their faith gives them the authority – the duty – to ingnore the law and try to enforce their beliefs on others.

    Anti-abortion violence:

    (Wikipedia)

    Murders

    In the U.S., violence directed toward abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[5]

    • August 21, 1993 Dr. George Patterson, was shot and killed in Mobile, Alabama, but it is uncertain whether his death was the direct result of his profession or rather a robbery.[6] [7]

    Attempted murder, assault, and threats

    According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[10]Attempted murders in the U.S. included:[5][11][12]

    • August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, KansasShelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
    • July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.
    • December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.
    • October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.[13]
    • January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.
    Anthrax threats

    The first hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting; since then, there have been 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the “anthrax” in these cases was real.[11][14]

    • November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacksClayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. On December 3, 2003, Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare.

    Arson, bombing, and property crime

    According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid (“stink bombs“).[10] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[15] More recent incidents have included:[5]

    • December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians’ offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings “a gift to Jesus on his birthday.”[16][17][18]
    • October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison.[19]
    • May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire on resulted in damage estimated at US$20,000. The case remains unsolved.[20]
    • September 30, 2000: A Catholic priest drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.[21]
    • June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages.[19]
    • July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.[19]
    • December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a “memorial lamp” for an abortion she had had there.[22]
    • September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester HillsMichigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women’s Care Center in DavenportIowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinic.[23]
    • April 25, 2007: A package left at a women’s health clinic in Austin, Texas contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building. Paul Ross Evans (who had a criminal record for armed robbery and theft) was found guilty of the crime.[24]
    • May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.[25]
    • December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd’s clinic in Albuquerque. Altman’s girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.[26]
    • January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness [27] rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.[28]

    Today’s news:

    Bangladesh ‘blocks Facebook’ over political cartoons

    Bangladesh has blocked access to Facebook after satirical images of the prophet Muhammad and the country’s leaders were uploaded, say reports.

    One man has been arrested and charged with “spreading malice and insulting the country’s leaders” with the images, an official told the AFP news agency.

    On Saturday, one man was arrested by the elite Rapid Action Battalion (RAB) in Dhaka and charged with uploading the images.

    “Facebook will be re-opened once we erase the pages that contain the obnoxious images,” said Mr Delwar.

    Pakistan blocked all access to Facebook – along with YouTube, Wikipedia and Flickr – last week after images of Muhammad started to appear online.

     

    It seems to me that many people, many nations even, cannot live in peace with those who do not share their faith.

    Should they go away, or should we?

    It is all very well saying we should learn to live together, but: they will not and they will not learn – it is their refusal to learn that is the basis of the problem. There will be no debate.

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