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	<title>Comments for History Hunters International</title>
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	<description>Studying cultural layers</description>
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		<title>Comment on The Gordion Knot of Classical Antiquity by History Hunters International</title>
		<link>http://historyhuntersinternational.org/2010/05/08/the-gordion-knot-of-classical-antiquity/comment-page-1/#comment-759</link>
		<dc:creator>History Hunters International</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 18:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historyhuntersinternational.org/?p=668#comment-759</guid>
		<description>I am doubly pleased you posted this today. First, because your view is as good - accurate - as we have been able to reach in our studies at HHI until recently, and second, because this prompts me to make a short announcement. We have published very little in quite a while, because once we found that there was no Christianity until Late Antiquity-Early Medieval, it became obvious that we needed a new chronology, which placed Chrest, Gnosticism and Manicheism in their proper context. On one hand, this negates quite a bit of our hypothesising, whilst demanding a major revision of the history for Classical Antiquity; this is now done.

This morning, I began removing certain of our articles from the public domain; David and I are working up a new series. This summarises, I believe, our present position:

- The underlying theology of divine men is Pythagorean. This movement seemingly disappears from the view of historians around the time of the Macedonian conquests ascribed traditionally to Alexander III of Macedon, then reappears in the 1st century of the modern era as Neopythagoreanism. I believe we can trace the archaeology of this movement from the Chi-Rho of Ptolemey III to Menander I in Greco-India. Its presence in Greco-India during this period is how it has been &#039;missed&#039;.

- The arrival of Scythians in Greco-India changed everything. First, they adopted Pythagoreanism, then they expanded their domain across Central Asia, to include India in the East, to Crimea and Upper Mesopotamia in the West.

- The chronicles of Josephus - upon which both Roman chroniclers and modern historians became overly dependent for their understanding of people and events in the East, especially Parthia and Parthians - contain a number of conflations. These were used to produce religious syncretisms, such as the &#039;history&#039; of Christianity (the New Testament and the works of the fictive Eusebius of Caesarea).

- Scythians take over the Parthian Empire in the final century of the past era; these become the two competing &#039;Arsacid&#039; dynastic lines.

- There is no Izates, nor Azizus of Emesa - there is no archaeology at all for them. These are Azes, the Scythian king of kings of the first half of the first century - the archaeology for this is reasonably secure. He supports Herod Agrippa I and James the Just, and thus also the &#039;Jewish Resistance&#039; against Agrippa II. Azes is the &quot;Great King of the Peoples Across the Euphrates&quot; to whom MMT is addressed, probably by James at Qumran (the &quot;Teacher of Righteousness&quot;). The archaeology for this is also good.

- The Chrestians of the first century of this era are the result of the Romanising by Antonia Minor of the provincial Levantine royalty; this is the policy of Augustus. One is the Saul of Josephus (as described by Robert Eisenman), who is related to all of them through his Herodian family (via the marriage of General Costobarus with Salome).

- One of the conflations within Josephus is between Adiabene of Izates/Azes and Edessa (an Antioch). This becomes the basis for Izates (Azes) conflation with Abgarus. In the late 2nd century, Bardaisan (if that is his real name) builds a textual tradition upon these conflations to the political (and theological) benefit of his friend, the king Abgaros (correct spelling). From this comes the &#039;School&#039; of Bardaisan, which produces the archaeology Dura Parchment 24, the Dura baptistry and Acts of Thomas.

This probably also transmuted Saul into Paul of Tarsus, Acts of the Apostles and the Chrestian archaeology of Phrygia (and its imperial &quot;Purple Order&quot; which we see also in the archaeology of the church at Megiddo), wrongly ascribed to a fictive Montanus.

The changes within the Severan dynasty relate directly to the theological developments in Edessa, through Julia Domna, &quot;Caracalla&quot; and successors.

Though the Sassanids take over Iran in this (3rd) century, the Scythians do not disappear, hanging on in Arabia and other regions. Very possibly &#039;Arius&#039; is as fictive as &#039;Montanus&#039; and actually refers to Aria in Central Asia (essentially Bactria); Arian Goths are therefore most likely descended from the Scythians, which is how Arianism enters the Roman Empire.

The theological cauldron in which 3rd-century Chrestianity is brewed is bounded by Adiabene, Edessa and Emesa - Upper Mesopotamia and Syria. It is from here and the School of Bardaisan that Manicheism is propagated and this is taken to Rome by Aurelian and probably Zenobia, where it is picked up my Helena and her husband, the parents of Constantine. There is zero evidence for his Christianity - he will have been Chrestian.

Christianity begins to appear as Chrest becomes Christ in codex Sinaiticus. As for the papacy and the great, formal Church of Rome, this appears out of the Roman reaction to Gothic Ravenna. The archaeological record for this is clear and has been ignored.

Well, that&#039;s the outline. I have found no publisher with any interest, so will publish it free for all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am doubly pleased you posted this today. First, because your view is as good -- accurate -- as we have been able to reach in our studies at HHI until recently, and second, because this prompts me to make a short announcement. We have published very little in quite a while, because once we found that there was no Christianity until Late Antiquity-Early Medieval, it became obvious that we needed a new chronology, which placed Chrest, Gnosticism and Manicheism in their proper context. On one hand, this negates quite a bit of our hypothesising, whilst demanding a major revision of the history for Classical Antiquity; this is now done.</p>
<p>This morning, I began removing certain of our articles from the public domain; David and I are working up a new series. This summarises, I believe, our present position:</p>
<p>- The underlying theology of divine men is Pythagorean. This movement seemingly disappears from the view of historians around the time of the Macedonian conquests ascribed traditionally to Alexander III of Macedon, then reappears in the 1st century of the modern era as Neopythagoreanism. I believe we can trace the archaeology of this movement from the Chi-Rho of Ptolemey III to Menander I in Greco-India. Its presence in Greco-India during this period is how it has been &#8216;missed&#8217;.</p>
<p>- The arrival of Scythians in Greco-India changed everything. First, they adopted Pythagoreanism, then they expanded their domain across Central Asia, to include India in the East, to Crimea and Upper Mesopotamia in the West.</p>
<p>- The chronicles of Josephus -- upon which both Roman chroniclers and modern historians became overly dependent for their understanding of people and events in the East, especially Parthia and Parthians -- contain a number of conflations. These were used to produce religious syncretisms, such as the &#8216;history&#8217; of Christianity (the New Testament and the works of the fictive Eusebius of Caesarea).</p>
<p>- Scythians take over the Parthian Empire in the final century of the past era; these become the two competing &#8216;Arsacid&#8217; dynastic lines.</p>
<p>- There is no Izates, nor Azizus of Emesa -- there is no archaeology at all for them. These are Azes, the Scythian king of kings of the first half of the first century -- the archaeology for this is reasonably secure. He supports Herod Agrippa I and James the Just, and thus also the &#8216;Jewish Resistance&#8217; against Agrippa II. Azes is the &#8220;Great King of the Peoples Across the Euphrates&#8221; to whom MMT is addressed, probably by James at Qumran (the &#8220;Teacher of Righteousness&#8221;). The archaeology for this is also good.</p>
<p>- The Chrestians of the first century of this era are the result of the Romanising by Antonia Minor of the provincial Levantine royalty; this is the policy of Augustus. One is the Saul of Josephus (as described by Robert Eisenman), who is related to all of them through his Herodian family (via the marriage of General Costobarus with Salome).</p>
<p>- One of the conflations within Josephus is between Adiabene of Izates/Azes and Edessa (an Antioch). This becomes the basis for Izates (Azes) conflation with Abgarus. In the late 2nd century, Bardaisan (if that is his real name) builds a textual tradition upon these conflations to the political (and theological) benefit of his friend, the king Abgaros (correct spelling). From this comes the &#8216;School&#8217; of Bardaisan, which produces the archaeology Dura Parchment 24, the Dura baptistry and Acts of Thomas.</p>
<p>This probably also transmuted Saul into Paul of Tarsus, Acts of the Apostles and the Chrestian archaeology of Phrygia (and its imperial &#8220;Purple Order&#8221; which we see also in the archaeology of the church at Megiddo), wrongly ascribed to a fictive Montanus.</p>
<p>The changes within the Severan dynasty relate directly to the theological developments in Edessa, through Julia Domna, &#8220;Caracalla&#8221; and successors.</p>
<p>Though the Sassanids take over Iran in this (3rd) century, the Scythians do not disappear, hanging on in Arabia and other regions. Very possibly &#8216;Arius&#8217; is as fictive as &#8216;Montanus&#8217; and actually refers to Aria in Central Asia (essentially Bactria); Arian Goths are therefore most likely descended from the Scythians, which is how Arianism enters the Roman Empire.</p>
<p>The theological cauldron in which 3rd-century Chrestianity is brewed is bounded by Adiabene, Edessa and Emesa -- Upper Mesopotamia and Syria. It is from here and the School of Bardaisan that Manicheism is propagated and this is taken to Rome by Aurelian and probably Zenobia, where it is picked up my Helena and her husband, the parents of Constantine. There is zero evidence for his Christianity -- he will have been Chrestian.</p>
<p>Christianity begins to appear as Chrest becomes Christ in codex Sinaiticus. As for the papacy and the great, formal Church of Rome, this appears out of the Roman reaction to Gothic Ravenna. The archaeological record for this is clear and has been ignored.</p>
<p>Well, that&#8217;s the outline. I have found no publisher with any interest, so will publish it free for all.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Gordion Knot of Classical Antiquity by GN. FLAVIVS PHILOVERITAS</title>
		<link>http://historyhuntersinternational.org/2010/05/08/the-gordion-knot-of-classical-antiquity/comment-page-1/#comment-758</link>
		<dc:creator>GN. FLAVIVS PHILOVERITAS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 14:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historyhuntersinternational.org/?p=668#comment-758</guid>
		<description>Study of Classical Antiquities, especially those concerned with the Flavian Dynasty and their probable connection to the institution of Christianity, are fraught with a dearth of information yet an abundance of tantalizing clues. I believe that Atwill, and more-so Carrington have the essential elements of their theories correct. In that Christianity was instituted under Flavian Rule, under a Easternized Syncretic version of the Cult of the Divine Vespasian and Titus. Just as the Greeks had previously done with the Egyptians with Serapis and Harpocrates and later the Romans to the Greeks(Interpretatio Romana). Evidence of the involvement of Domitian in the generation of Christianity has been lost to us by his senate proclaimed Damnatio Memoraie, and through later Christian interference. Historical manuscripts preserved only in Christian monasteries during the Middle Ages such as Tacitus&#039; Historiae and Cassius Dio are fragmentary or missing altogether at the most crucial period in question, somewhat conveniently for the church. Due to repeated Jewish rebellion during the Antonine Dynasty, Christianity was certainly advanced under Trajan, who in-fact made manifest a New Jerusalem. Eventually Christianity gained a foothold among the legions, the slaves, and the rascally mob of Rome when the context was lost to the popular culture of the link between the divine Father and Son to Vespasian and Titus was lost, culminating in the shenanigans of Constantine &amp; Co. At which point Christianity became a political tool of the Empire and the rest is bloody and depraved history.

With the gaps in the reliable history, these things while possible to postulate, even more reasonably so then the traditional history put forward in the scriptures, it cannot be proven to be such; any more than the church&#039;s position. 

My search for the truth in classical studies always hits this stumbling block leading me in circles on what some would call a wild goose chase. Though undeterred from seeking, it is sometimes enough to make a sane man insane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Study of Classical Antiquities, especially those concerned with the Flavian Dynasty and their probable connection to the institution of Christianity, are fraught with a dearth of information yet an abundance of tantalizing clues. I believe that Atwill, and more-so Carrington have the essential elements of their theories correct. In that Christianity was instituted under Flavian Rule, under a Easternized Syncretic version of the Cult of the Divine Vespasian and Titus. Just as the Greeks had previously done with the Egyptians with Serapis and Harpocrates and later the Romans to the Greeks(Interpretatio Romana). Evidence of the involvement of Domitian in the generation of Christianity has been lost to us by his senate proclaimed Damnatio Memoraie, and through later Christian interference. Historical manuscripts preserved only in Christian monasteries during the Middle Ages such as Tacitus&#8217; Historiae and Cassius Dio are fragmentary or missing altogether at the most crucial period in question, somewhat conveniently for the church. Due to repeated Jewish rebellion during the Antonine Dynasty, Christianity was certainly advanced under Trajan, who in-fact made manifest a New Jerusalem. Eventually Christianity gained a foothold among the legions, the slaves, and the rascally mob of Rome when the context was lost to the popular culture of the link between the divine Father and Son to Vespasian and Titus was lost, culminating in the shenanigans of Constantine &amp; Co. At which point Christianity became a political tool of the Empire and the rest is bloody and depraved history.</p>
<p>With the gaps in the reliable history, these things while possible to postulate, even more reasonably so then the traditional history put forward in the scriptures, it cannot be proven to be such; any more than the church&#8217;s position. </p>
<p>My search for the truth in classical studies always hits this stumbling block leading me in circles on what some would call a wild goose chase. Though undeterred from seeking, it is sometimes enough to make a sane man insane.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Conspiracies of Ancient Rome by David Pelfrey</title>
		<link>http://historyhuntersinternational.org/2012/04/15/4496/comment-page-1/#comment-757</link>
		<dc:creator>David Pelfrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 04:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historyhuntersinternational.org/?p=4496#comment-757</guid>
		<description>A well-articulated reminder that historians assessing the redactive intent of sources related to Imperial Rome need to understand the function of court propaganda. Every source has been passed through a series of lenses: the contemporary lens of the courtier propagandist and then through the lens of medieval Christian scriptoria.

There is little doubt that the entire study of Roman antiquity needs to be re-founded on an interdiciplinary methodology.  Only then will something close to the truth will itself out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A well-articulated reminder that historians assessing the redactive intent of sources related to Imperial Rome need to understand the function of court propaganda. Every source has been passed through a series of lenses: the contemporary lens of the courtier propagandist and then through the lens of medieval Christian scriptoria.</p>
<p>There is little doubt that the entire study of Roman antiquity needs to be re-founded on an interdiciplinary methodology.  Only then will something close to the truth will itself out.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The archaeology of Alexander the Great: 1. Coins by History Hunters International</title>
		<link>http://historyhuntersinternational.org/2010/03/25/the-archaeology-of-alexander-the-great-1-coins/comment-page-1/#comment-756</link>
		<dc:creator>History Hunters International</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historyhuntersinternational.org/2010/03/25/the-archaeology-of-alexander-the-great-1-coins/#comment-756</guid>
		<description>Steff van Cauwenberg: Alexandrou (&#039;of Alexander&#039;) appears on Macedonian coins of the modern era:
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/macedonia/koinon/i.html 
I think this fact supports my hypothesis better than it does yours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steff van Cauwenberg: Alexandrou (&#8216;of Alexander&#8217;) appears on Macedonian coins of the modern era:<br />
<a href="http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/macedonia/koinon/i.html " rel="nofollow">http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/macedonia/koinon/i.html </a><br />
I think this fact supports my hypothesis better than it does yours.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The archaeology of Alexander the Great: 1. Coins by AlexanderIII</title>
		<link>http://historyhuntersinternational.org/2010/03/25/the-archaeology-of-alexander-the-great-1-coins/comment-page-1/#comment-755</link>
		<dc:creator>AlexanderIII</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Feb 2012 18:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historyhuntersinternational.org/2010/03/25/the-archaeology-of-alexander-the-great-1-coins/#comment-755</guid>
		<description>The fact that there are so much different types of coins with &quot;ALEXANDROU&quot; on the reverse and the different places where they were found (from Greece to India) is strong evidence of his existence. It also shows that he had a large empire (or at least that he had enough influence to spread his coins AND to have a lot of silver and gold).

If you are interested in the coinage of Alexander III, check this out:
http://alexandercoins.steffvc.com
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that there are so much different types of coins with &#8220;ALEXANDROU&#8221; on the reverse and the different places where they were found (from Greece to India) is strong evidence of his existence. It also shows that he had a large empire (or at least that he had enough influence to spread his coins AND to have a lot of silver and gold).</p>
<p>If you are interested in the coinage of Alexander III, check this out:<br />
<a href="http://alexandercoins.steffvc.com" rel="nofollow">http://alexandercoins.steffvc.com</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Mani and Authorship of the Canonical Gospels by History Hunters International</title>
		<link>http://historyhuntersinternational.org/2011/06/18/canonical-gospels-fourth-century/comment-page-1/#comment-754</link>
		<dc:creator>History Hunters International</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historyhuntersinternational.org/?p=4015#comment-754</guid>
		<description>John,

Thank you for bringing Methodius of Olympus (died ca. 311) into this discussion. His concerns seem to me to be similar and maybe compatible with those of the Chrestian Church (usually described as Montanist), whose 3rd-century archaeology in Phrygia David will describe here soon.

Here is a copy of &#039;Methodius of Olympus, Works&#039;:
http://www.archive.org/details/MethodiusOfOlympusWorks

Though I not a linguist, a search of this book seemed (to me) to find numerous examples of the &#039;Chrest&#039; (XPH...) spelling. I welcome an expert view.

Best regards,
John Bartram</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>Thank you for bringing Methodius of Olympus (died ca. 311) into this discussion. His concerns seem to me to be similar and maybe compatible with those of the Chrestian Church (usually described as Montanist), whose 3rd-century archaeology in Phrygia David will describe here soon.</p>
<p>Here is a copy of &#8216;Methodius of Olympus, Works&#8217;:<br />
<a href="http://www.archive.org/details/MethodiusOfOlympusWorks" rel="nofollow">http://www.archive.org/details/MethodiusOfOlympusWorks</a></p>
<p>Though I not a linguist, a search of this book seemed (to me) to find numerous examples of the &#8216;Chrest&#8217; (XPH&#8230;) spelling. I welcome an expert view.</p>
<p>Best regards,<br />
John Bartram</p>
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		<title>Comment on Mani and Authorship of the Canonical Gospels by John Arrington Woodward</title>
		<link>http://historyhuntersinternational.org/2011/06/18/canonical-gospels-fourth-century/comment-page-1/#comment-753</link>
		<dc:creator>John Arrington Woodward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historyhuntersinternational.org/?p=4015#comment-753</guid>
		<description>John,

Thank you for the response. I determined independently, through a communication with one of Porphyry&#039;s translators, that he only exists in copy. What of Methodius, though? He was a contemporary of Origen, argued against some of his points and those of Porphyry, and to my knowledge has an extant Greek text, The Symposium. Here is a link. http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/encyc07/htm/ii.xii.htm

I&#039;m working on confirming this independently, but have many other things that consume my time. I&#039;m also trying to find a Greek &#039;original&#039; or facsimile to determine whether he has written Christ or Chrest, though that will definitely take some time.

All the best,
John</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>Thank you for the response. I determined independently, through a communication with one of Porphyry&#8217;s translators, that he only exists in copy. What of Methodius, though? He was a contemporary of Origen, argued against some of his points and those of Porphyry, and to my knowledge has an extant Greek text, The Symposium. Here is a link. http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/encyc07/htm/ii.xii.htm</p>
<p>I&#8217;m working on confirming this independently, but have many other things that consume my time. I&#8217;m also trying to find a Greek &#8216;original&#8217; or facsimile to determine whether he has written Christ or Chrest, though that will definitely take some time.</p>
<p>All the best,<br />
John</p>
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		<title>Comment on Mani and Authorship of the Canonical Gospels by History Hunters International</title>
		<link>http://historyhuntersinternational.org/2011/06/18/canonical-gospels-fourth-century/comment-page-1/#comment-752</link>
		<dc:creator>History Hunters International</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historyhuntersinternational.org/?p=4015#comment-752</guid>
		<description>John: thank you for your interest and question.

You refer to the entry in Wikipedia, which I quote:
Of his Adversus Christianos (Against the Christians) in fifteen books, only fragments remain, as quotations adduced in order to be refuted.[14][15] In it, he famously is quoted as having said, &quot;The Gods have proclaimed Christ to have been most pious, but the Christians are a confused and vicious sect.&quot; Counter-treatises were written by Eusebius of Caesarea, Apollinaris of Laodicea, Methodius of Olympus, and Macarius of Magnesia, but all these are lost.Porphyry&#039;s identification of the Book of Daniel as the work of a writer in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes (2nd century BC), is given by Jerome. Augustine and the 5th-century ecclesiastical historian Socrates of Constantinople, assert that Porphyry was once a Christian. [16]14 &quot;Constantine and other emperors banned and burned Porphyry&#039;s work&quot; (Digeser 1998:130).15 Letter of Constantine proscribing the works of Porphyry and Arius, To the Bishops and People, in Socrates Scholasticus, Historia Ecclesiastica, i.9.30-31; Gelasius, Historia Ecclesiastica, II.36; translated in Stevenson, J., (Editor; Revised with additional documents by W. H. C. Frend), A New Eusebius, Documents illustrating the history of the Church to AD 337 (SPCK, 1987).16 Historia Ecclesiastica III.23.

We therefore do not know, it seems to me, what Porphyry may have written on this - if anything at all. That said, I will take this opportunity to mention these related views of mine:
a. What many regard as the history of the early Christian Church is based on little or nothing more than medieval texts such as those referenced above.
b. Porphyry is, in my opinion, less a &#039;philosopher&#039; and more a magician; this applies also to Iamblichus.
c. These two magicians provided, I think, much of the theurgy of whatever (Chrestian/Chrestic) Church was recognised, or created by Constantine I, which later became the Christian Church.

Best regards,
John Bartram</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John: thank you for your interest and question.</p>
<p>You refer to the entry in Wikipedia, which I quote:<br />
Of his Adversus Christianos (Against the Christians) in fifteen books, only fragments remain, as quotations adduced in order to be refuted.[14][15] In it, he famously is quoted as having said, &#8220;The Gods have proclaimed Christ to have been most pious, but the Christians are a confused and vicious sect.&#8221; Counter-treatises were written by Eusebius of Caesarea, Apollinaris of Laodicea, Methodius of Olympus, and Macarius of Magnesia, but all these are lost.Porphyry&#8217;s identification of the Book of Daniel as the work of a writer in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes (2nd century BC), is given by Jerome. Augustine and the 5th-century ecclesiastical historian Socrates of Constantinople, assert that Porphyry was once a Christian. [16]14 &#8220;Constantine and other emperors banned and burned Porphyry&#8217;s work&#8221; (Digeser 1998:130).15 Letter of Constantine proscribing the works of Porphyry and Arius, To the Bishops and People, in Socrates Scholasticus, Historia Ecclesiastica, i.9.30-31; Gelasius, Historia Ecclesiastica, II.36; translated in Stevenson, J., (Editor; Revised with additional documents by W. H. C. Frend), A New Eusebius, Documents illustrating the history of the Church to AD 337 (SPCK, 1987).16 Historia Ecclesiastica III.23.</p>
<p>We therefore do not know, it seems to me, what Porphyry may have written on this -- if anything at all. That said, I will take this opportunity to mention these related views of mine:<br />
a. What many regard as the history of the early Christian Church is based on little or nothing more than medieval texts such as those referenced above.<br />
b. Porphyry is, in my opinion, less a &#8216;philosopher&#8217; and more a magician; this applies also to Iamblichus.<br />
c. These two magicians provided, I think, much of the theurgy of whatever (Chrestian/Chrestic) Church was recognised, or created by Constantine I, which later became the Christian Church.</p>
<p>Best regards,<br />
John Bartram</p>
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		<title>Comment on Mani and Authorship of the Canonical Gospels by John Arrington Woodward</title>
		<link>http://historyhuntersinternational.org/2011/06/18/canonical-gospels-fourth-century/comment-page-1/#comment-751</link>
		<dc:creator>John Arrington Woodward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historyhuntersinternational.org/?p=4015#comment-751</guid>
		<description>John,

You say there is a &quot;vacuum of evidence for pre-4th century Christianity...&quot;

You may have addressed this already, but what of Porphyry&#039;s _Against the Christians_ from the end of the 3rd Century?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyry_(philosopher)

best,
J</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>You say there is a &#8220;vacuum of evidence for pre-4th century Christianity&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>You may have addressed this already, but what of Porphyry&#8217;s _Against the Christians_ from the end of the 3rd Century?</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyry_(philosopher)" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyry_(philosopher)</a></p>
<p>best,<br />
J</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on The vacuum of evidence for pre-4th century Christianity by David Pelfrey</title>
		<link>http://historyhuntersinternational.org/2011/03/06/the-vacuum-of-evidence-for-pre-4th-century-christianity/comment-page-1/#comment-750</link>
		<dc:creator>David Pelfrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2011 02:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historyhuntersinternational.org/?p=3001#comment-750</guid>
		<description>Nomina Sacra are case sensitive in the hands of some scribes.  In this particular case it appears that Sinaiticus scribe A declined the
nomen sacrum for IS XS (nom.) to the accusative masculine singular formIN XN.

So in the case of 2 John 7 we have: ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ??????, ?? ?? ???????????? ??????
??????? ????????? ?? ?????· ????? ????? ? ?????? ??? ? ???????????.


 


The second element concerning the antichrist is a very perceptive and wonderful question and stands entirely to
your credit Ignorantianescia.  John and I appreciate a well-aimed incisive inquiry that moves the discussion forward. I should also take this opportunity to state categorically that I do not pretend to have all the answers for such a challenging topic of history.  The antichrist question raised here definitely highlights an important topic that I have not exhausted with respect to its relation to the HHI thesis.  So again Ignorantianescia, or perhaps the not-so-Ignorantianescia, on behalf of John and myself, thank you.

To your question:



The Johannine Epistles (1 &amp; 2): first, the traditional scholarly view holds that the Antichrist myth as a literary type
in Christianity formed in the third century CE (between 180-33). For a discussion of what background material aside from textual artifacts informs my view see: Gregory C. Jenks, The Origins and Early Development of the Antichrist Myth, (Berlin: Walter De Gruyter &amp; Co., 1990).



Within the NT and Sinaiticus , the term antichrist is confined to the Johannine literature that Ignorantianescia cites. 
On the basis of the Johannine evidence, traditional NT textual criticism holds
that the antichrist figure dates to the NT period and early.  Yet close
examination of the MSS transmission allows one to trace original textual
artifacts (papyri and parchments) only as far back in time as late (very late)
antiquity or the early medieval period.  Our research indicates that Sinaiticus may well prove to be the earliest textual artifact containing the term antichrist.  That it occurs in a work where the lexeme root chrest- is adjusted to read Christ- is consistent with the redactive intent of Sinaiticus as a work that focuses Christianity on the figure Jesus Christ.  That his additive inverse appears in the form of antichrist is as symmetrical as it is theoLogical.



HHI takes the rather strict and for many inconvenient approach that a textual artifact (papyrus, parchment, inscription, etc.) be produced and cited in order to advance a date for the use of a term or existence of a figure. Under these constraints, we have no physical textual
artifacts containing the actual and complete passages in question (1 &amp;2 John) that are
dated earlier than the fourth century CE. Relying on the rule of using only a
physical text as a true and proper object of dating,  it is not possible to establish an accurate date
for these Johannine Epistles earlier than their presence in perhaps Sinaiticus itself.  Unfortunately, we have not yet recovered
textual artifacts from the first three centuries CE for 1 &amp; 2 John.  (I will discuss Uncial 0232 below).



If you have read through some of the
HHI site, you are aware of our view of P52.



Textual criticism is used to
extrapolate assumed earlier versions of these narratives into the first century
CE.  At this juncture, the existence of
canonical 1 &amp; 2 John, in the first and second century CE is really a
question of faith and not science.  When some present the site Early Christian Writings as evidence for pre-4th century CE source material for Christianity, they often fail to examine the scholarly apparatus within the links to expert secondary sources wherein a scholar discusses the issues of the manuscript transmission for the documents.  In the majority of cases, the oldest complete or nearly complete physical textual artifact in the form of a MS dates into the early medieval period and no earlier.  In several fortunate and remarkable cases, we have papyri fragments or parchment bits attesting to early Christian writings; however, none of these artifacts is securely dated to the early centuries of Christianity.



Assuming for the sake of argument
that traditional timeline holds there are points to be studied: there is a
silence in the traditional record between the appearance of the term antichrist
in Johannine documents and those next occurrences usually cited in Irenaeus –
traditionally a century later.  The only possible exception to this that
comes to mind is Polycarp (Phil. 7:1, but here again it is a Johannine Epistle
being cited).  Origen cites the lexeme explicitly in Cels.VI. 45. however,
we have a major and familiar problem in that all the physical mss. artifacts
terminate at the transition from late antiquity to that of the early medieval:
Harnak debunked some very hopeful looking Irenaeus material and most of what we know of this
figure is highly dependent on Eusebius. We do have P. Oxyrhynchus 405, identified as fragments of a letter by Irenaeus
and dated paleographically to a range between middle 3rd –  and very late 2nd century CE, and
the scholarship seems to follow Greenfell and Hunt.  However, P. Oxyrh. 405 records neither Christ
nor Antichrist and the matter rests with respect to the present discussion. By
way of aside,  papyri fragments such as
these are of the highest importance in resolving the issues HHI presents to the
public: these are artifacts, they hold text related to the problem, and there
exists the possibility that they may be recovered from secure contexts and
strata.  Unfortunately, because these
best potential witnesses are fragments in most cases without clear provenance,
we have no opportunity to weigh the scale of difference between these papyri
artifacts and the medieval mss purportedly containing accurate copies of the
earlier material.



We have but two early Eusebius HE
mss and they date to the 5th and 4th century CE.  Siglum
B, Russia: St. Petersburg, Public Library, appears to have an actual denoted
date within the text equating to 462 CE. 
All other variants of the HE are medieval, profoundly medieval.  



What we know of Polycarp derives
from Greek mss. sigla b, p, s, and
v.  These are all of 10th and
11th century CE provenance. 
Paleographers and textual critics extrapolate non-existant earlier
variants dating to the 4th century CE.  This leaves us with Origen. As far as I am
aware, all of the mss. of Contra Celsum derive from a single parent ms: Apostolica.
Codex Vaticanus Graecus 386.  This ms dates to the 13th
century C.E.



The art of textual criticism,
however noble and necessary, is yet an art and not yet a science.



The More or Less Hard Evidence


As far as I am aware, outside of Sinaiticus, the earliest artifact for 1 &amp; 2 John is Uncial 0232.  The
MSS is dated paleographically to the 5th or 6th century
C.E.  This may be dispensed with as suitably late to precede the chrest
form.  That leaves only Sinaiticus  itself as an artifact attesting the lexeme
antichrist.  The question then rests on the date of manufacture for the
Johnine material in the codex itself.  The best paleographical arguments
date the codex between the first quarter of the fourth century CE and about 360
CE (as you already well know).  I do not have an image for uncial 0232 and
we are not yet able to see if the ms reads antichrest/christ - but this does
not, to my mind, change our position given the late date of uncial 0232 and the consensus date for Sinaiticus.


Sinaiticus scribes A, B, &amp; D are working late by traditional
reckoning on standardizing a biblical text.  Dirk Jongkind, who writes on Sinaiticus fairly recently, gives this summary on the subject of iotacisms or
itacisms:


Our short
study has broadly confirmed the remarks of Milne and Skeat on orthographic
errors.  We have sought to quantify the exact differences between the
three scribes.  The characteristic patterns turned out to be less stable
than one would have expected [and why is that?].  In Matthew, scribe
A shows a remarkable deterioration over the length of two quires.  What
exactly caused this change remains unclear.  Scribes A and B make
the error of substituting the longer for the shorter form more often than the
reverse for the the I – EI and E – AI pair.  Though scribe D also does this,
he does so to a lesser degree.  His number of
changes of EI for I is higher than for the other scribes. 
However, overall, he has the least number of examples of orthographic errors in
his work. (Jongkind, Dirk (2007). Scribal Habits of Codex Sinaiticus,
Gorgias Press LLC,  p. 94)


Traditional scholarship peddles the
thesis that the hallmark of evolution from ancient to Modern Greek is the
convergence of vowels and diphthongs.  The circumstances surrounding the copying and compiling of Sinaiticus appears appears to indicate Scribes A and D were copying MSS wherein
there were divergent handling of eta and iota.  The mistake is to limit
the discussion to itacisms.  I am compelled to remark that the scribe who
appears to be the overall adjuster of text, scribe D, executes the least number
of errors and undertakes the highest number eta to iota changes.  One may
advance the usual itacism theory and rest smug next to the academic fire. 
However, itacisms do not explain the adjustment of eta to iota where there is
no diphthong within the lexeme as we find in Chrest/Christ.  Scribe D (or some other skilled redactor) intentionally substitutes one monothong for another. One may not
argue that the scribe is making room to squeeze text into a quire for in
several examples we have put forward no space is saved.  We are free to
conclude a difference in meaning is to be affected.  


1 &amp; 2 John:  based on an
artifact approach to the NT, the trend is to date these mss late.  these
are evolving into products of late-antiquity or the early medieval.  I
believe uncial 0232 was found at Antinopolis and there is some disagreement
concerning dates with the usual pressure to date early.  Whereas earlier
paleographers assigned a date of 3rd-4th century CE, the
INTF (Institut für
neutestamentliche Textforschung)
now assigns the
5th-6th century CE date. No one yet desires to confront in writing what the
revised dates for uncial 0232 may indicate for Sinaiticus composed beyond the reign of Constantine.


The lexeme
antichrist is found in Sianticus only in 1 &amp; 2 John.  The earliest
independent artifact attesting to 1 &amp; 2 John outside of Sinaticus the
5th-6th century uncial 0232.  We assert Christ is a late form and the
appearance of Antichrist should parallel this late appearance.  By our
method the attested range that results is therefore fourth to sixth century CE.



There is some
question regarding the appearance of the lexeme antichrist in Jewish literature
(the anti-messiah of Daniel).  There is also the long lexical history of
the antibasileus. However, this is beyond the scope of this discussion for the moment.



One point John
&amp; I want to make very, very, clear: HHI does not argue that I S never
existed.  HHI argues that Christianity
centered on a Jesus Christ as described in the canonical NT did not exist in an incontestable form until at least the 4th century CE.  HHI asserts that there is a precursor to this
Orthodox Christianity.  For the moment we
denote this collection of beliefs and practices as chrestiantiy and its
followers chrestians.  There is something
within the archaeological textual record that is as beautiful and magnificent
as it is tantalizing and elusive. John and I fully expect that papyri and parchments related to chrestianity, as well as other classes of artifacts, dating to centuries earlier than the fourth CE to come to light. However, HHI challenges the archaeological community to put forward hard evidence for a Christianity centered on Jesus Christ prior to this fourth century divide.Very Kind Regards and Best Wishes this Holiday Season - David


 


Very Best -
David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nomina Sacra are case sensitive in the hands of some scribes.  In this particular case it appears that Sinaiticus scribe A declined the<br />
nomen sacrum for IS XS (nom.) to the accusative masculine singular formIN XN.</p>
<p>So in the case of 2 John 7 we have: ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ??????, ?? ?? ???????????? ??????<br />
??????? ????????? ?? ?????· ????? ????? ? ?????? ??? ? ???????????.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The second element concerning the antichrist is a very perceptive and wonderful question and stands entirely to<br />
your credit Ignorantianescia.  John and I appreciate a well-aimed incisive inquiry that moves the discussion forward. I should also take this opportunity to state categorically that I do not pretend to have all the answers for such a challenging topic of history.  The antichrist question raised here definitely highlights an important topic that I have not exhausted with respect to its relation to the HHI thesis.  So again Ignorantianescia, or perhaps the not-so-Ignorantianescia, on behalf of John and myself, thank you.</p>
<p>To your question:</p>
<p>The Johannine Epistles (1 &amp; 2): first, the traditional scholarly view holds that the Antichrist myth as a literary type<br />
in Christianity formed in the third century CE (between 180-33). For a discussion of what background material aside from textual artifacts informs my view see: Gregory C. Jenks, The Origins and Early Development of the Antichrist Myth, (Berlin: Walter De Gruyter &amp; Co., 1990).</p>
<p>Within the NT and Sinaiticus , the term antichrist is confined to the Johannine literature that Ignorantianescia cites. <br />
On the basis of the Johannine evidence, traditional NT textual criticism holds<br />
that the antichrist figure dates to the NT period and early.  Yet close<br />
examination of the MSS transmission allows one to trace original textual<br />
artifacts (papyri and parchments) only as far back in time as late (very late)<br />
antiquity or the early medieval period.  Our research indicates that Sinaiticus may well prove to be the earliest textual artifact containing the term antichrist.  That it occurs in a work where the lexeme root chrest- is adjusted to read Christ- is consistent with the redactive intent of Sinaiticus as a work that focuses Christianity on the figure Jesus Christ.  That his additive inverse appears in the form of antichrist is as symmetrical as it is theoLogical.</p>
<p>HHI takes the rather strict and for many inconvenient approach that a textual artifact (papyrus, parchment, inscription, etc.) be produced and cited in order to advance a date for the use of a term or existence of a figure. Under these constraints, we have no physical textual<br />
artifacts containing the actual and complete passages in question (1 &amp;2 John) that are<br />
dated earlier than the fourth century CE. Relying on the rule of using only a<br />
physical text as a true and proper object of dating,  it is not possible to establish an accurate date<br />
for these Johannine Epistles earlier than their presence in perhaps Sinaiticus itself.  Unfortunately, we have not yet recovered<br />
textual artifacts from the first three centuries CE for 1 &amp; 2 John.  (I will discuss Uncial 0232 below).</p>
<p>If you have read through some of the<br />
HHI site, you are aware of our view of P52.</p>
<p>Textual criticism is used to<br />
extrapolate assumed earlier versions of these narratives into the first century<br />
CE.  At this juncture, the existence of<br />
canonical 1 &amp; 2 John, in the first and second century CE is really a<br />
question of faith and not science.  When some present the site Early Christian Writings as evidence for pre-4th century CE source material for Christianity, they often fail to examine the scholarly apparatus within the links to expert secondary sources wherein a scholar discusses the issues of the manuscript transmission for the documents.  In the majority of cases, the oldest complete or nearly complete physical textual artifact in the form of a MS dates into the early medieval period and no earlier.  In several fortunate and remarkable cases, we have papyri fragments or parchment bits attesting to early Christian writings; however, none of these artifacts is securely dated to the early centuries of Christianity.</p>
<p>Assuming for the sake of argument<br />
that traditional timeline holds there are points to be studied: there is a<br />
silence in the traditional record between the appearance of the term antichrist<br />
in Johannine documents and those next occurrences usually cited in Irenaeus –<br />
traditionally a century later.  The only possible exception to this that<br />
comes to mind is Polycarp (Phil. 7:1, but here again it is a Johannine Epistle<br />
being cited).  Origen cites the lexeme explicitly in Cels.VI. 45. however,<br />
we have a major and familiar problem in that all the physical mss. artifacts<br />
terminate at the transition from late antiquity to that of the early medieval:<br />
Harnak debunked some very hopeful looking Irenaeus material and most of what we know of this<br />
figure is highly dependent on Eusebius. We do have P. Oxyrhynchus 405, identified as fragments of a letter by Irenaeus<br />
and dated paleographically to a range between middle 3rd –  and very late 2nd century CE, and<br />
the scholarship seems to follow Greenfell and Hunt.  However, P. Oxyrh. 405 records neither Christ<br />
nor Antichrist and the matter rests with respect to the present discussion. By<br />
way of aside,  papyri fragments such as<br />
these are of the highest importance in resolving the issues HHI presents to the<br />
public: these are artifacts, they hold text related to the problem, and there<br />
exists the possibility that they may be recovered from secure contexts and<br />
strata.  Unfortunately, because these<br />
best potential witnesses are fragments in most cases without clear provenance,<br />
we have no opportunity to weigh the scale of difference between these papyri<br />
artifacts and the medieval mss purportedly containing accurate copies of the<br />
earlier material.</p>
<p>We have but two early Eusebius HE<br />
mss and they date to the 5th and 4th century CE.  Siglum<br />
B, Russia: St. Petersburg, Public Library, appears to have an actual denoted<br />
date within the text equating to 462 CE. <br />
All other variants of the HE are medieval, profoundly medieval.  </p>
<p>What we know of Polycarp derives<br />
from Greek mss. sigla b, p, s, and<br />
v.  These are all of 10th and<br />
11th century CE provenance. <br />
Paleographers and textual critics extrapolate non-existant earlier<br />
variants dating to the 4th century CE.  This leaves us with Origen. As far as I am<br />
aware, all of the mss. of Contra Celsum derive from a single parent ms: Apostolica.<br />
Codex Vaticanus Graecus 386.  This ms dates to the 13th<br />
century C.E.</p>
<p>The art of textual criticism,<br />
however noble and necessary, is yet an art and not yet a science.</p>
<p>The More or Less Hard Evidence</p>
<p>As far as I am aware, outside of Sinaiticus, the earliest artifact for 1 &amp; 2 John is Uncial 0232.  The<br />
MSS is dated paleographically to the 5th or 6th century<br />
C.E.  This may be dispensed with as suitably late to precede the chrest<br />
form.  That leaves only Sinaiticus  itself as an artifact attesting the lexeme<br />
antichrist.  The question then rests on the date of manufacture for the<br />
Johnine material in the codex itself.  The best paleographical arguments<br />
date the codex between the first quarter of the fourth century CE and about 360<br />
CE (as you already well know).  I do not have an image for uncial 0232 and<br />
we are not yet able to see if the ms reads antichrest/christ -- but this does<br />
not, to my mind, change our position given the late date of uncial 0232 and the consensus date for Sinaiticus.</p>
<p>Sinaiticus scribes A, B, &amp; D are working late by traditional<br />
reckoning on standardizing a biblical text.  Dirk Jongkind, who writes on Sinaiticus fairly recently, gives this summary on the subject of iotacisms or<br />
itacisms:</p>
<p>Our short<br />
study has broadly confirmed the remarks of Milne and Skeat on orthographic<br />
errors.  We have sought to quantify the exact differences between the<br />
three scribes.  The characteristic patterns turned out to be less stable<br />
than one would have expected [and why is that?].  In Matthew, scribe<br />
A shows a remarkable deterioration over the length of two quires.  What<br />
exactly caused this change remains unclear.  Scribes A and B make<br />
the error of substituting the longer for the shorter form more often than the<br />
reverse for the the I – EI and E – AI pair.  Though scribe D also does this,<br />
he does so to a lesser degree.  His number of<br />
changes of EI for I is higher than for the other scribes. <br />
However, overall, he has the least number of examples of orthographic errors in<br />
his work. (Jongkind, Dirk (2007). Scribal Habits of Codex Sinaiticus,<br />
Gorgias Press LLC,  p. 94)</p>
<p>Traditional scholarship peddles the<br />
thesis that the hallmark of evolution from ancient to Modern Greek is the<br />
convergence of vowels and diphthongs.  The circumstances surrounding the copying and compiling of Sinaiticus appears appears to indicate Scribes A and D were copying MSS wherein<br />
there were divergent handling of eta and iota.  The mistake is to limit<br />
the discussion to itacisms.  I am compelled to remark that the scribe who<br />
appears to be the overall adjuster of text, scribe D, executes the least number<br />
of errors and undertakes the highest number eta to iota changes.  One may<br />
advance the usual itacism theory and rest smug next to the academic fire. <br />
However, itacisms do not explain the adjustment of eta to iota where there is<br />
no diphthong within the lexeme as we find in Chrest/Christ.  Scribe D (or some other skilled redactor) intentionally substitutes one monothong for another. One may not<br />
argue that the scribe is making room to squeeze text into a quire for in<br />
several examples we have put forward no space is saved.  We are free to<br />
conclude a difference in meaning is to be affected.  </p>
<p>1 &amp; 2 John:  based on an<br />
artifact approach to the NT, the trend is to date these mss late.  these<br />
are evolving into products of late-antiquity or the early medieval.  I<br />
believe uncial 0232 was found at Antinopolis and there is some disagreement<br />
concerning dates with the usual pressure to date early.  Whereas earlier<br />
paleographers assigned a date of 3rd-4th century CE, the<br />
INTF (Institut für<br />
neutestamentliche Textforschung)<br />
now assigns the<br />
5th-6th century CE date. No one yet desires to confront in writing what the<br />
revised dates for uncial 0232 may indicate for Sinaiticus composed beyond the reign of Constantine.</p>
<p>The lexeme<br />
antichrist is found in Sianticus only in 1 &amp; 2 John.  The earliest<br />
independent artifact attesting to 1 &amp; 2 John outside of Sinaticus the<br />
5th-6th century uncial 0232.  We assert Christ is a late form and the<br />
appearance of Antichrist should parallel this late appearance.  By our<br />
method the attested range that results is therefore fourth to sixth century CE.</p>
<p>There is some<br />
question regarding the appearance of the lexeme antichrist in Jewish literature<br />
(the anti-messiah of Daniel).  There is also the long lexical history of<br />
the antibasileus. However, this is beyond the scope of this discussion for the moment.</p>
<p>One point John<br />
&amp; I want to make very, very, clear: HHI does not argue that I S never<br />
existed.  HHI argues that Christianity<br />
centered on a Jesus Christ as described in the canonical NT did not exist in an incontestable form until at least the 4th century CE.  HHI asserts that there is a precursor to this<br />
Orthodox Christianity.  For the moment we<br />
denote this collection of beliefs and practices as chrestiantiy and its<br />
followers chrestians.  There is something<br />
within the archaeological textual record that is as beautiful and magnificent<br />
as it is tantalizing and elusive. John and I fully expect that papyri and parchments related to chrestianity, as well as other classes of artifacts, dating to centuries earlier than the fourth CE to come to light. However, HHI challenges the archaeological community to put forward hard evidence for a Christianity centered on Jesus Christ prior to this fourth century divide.Very Kind Regards and Best Wishes this Holiday Season -- David</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Very Best -<br />
David</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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