History Hunters International

I would really appreciate some help in identifying these coins. I know for sure that they're Spanish, but after that, I'm vague. Can anyone here please help. First, the silver.
Moneypenny, would you be so kind?

Thanks!

---

Obverse
(https://historyhuntersinternational.org/Sovereign/silver coins A.jpg)

Reverse
(https://historyhuntersinternational.org/Sovereign/silver coins B.jpg)

And now the gold:

(https://historyhuntersinternational.org/Sovereign/gold coin ID.jpg)

Thanks again  :D

Hello Sovereign,  Yes, I'd be glad to help. I will discuss the silver coins first. I am assuming the obverse and reverse of each coin are pictured above and below in the photos.
These are Spanish cobs of the Mexico mint. Each cob was unique because each was struck individually by hand. Thus there were many variations depending on the skill (or mood) of the worker. This is what makes cobs so fascinating to study.
The first coin on the left top appears to be from the year 1730 (numbers visible around the edge at 9 o'clock) which is just 2 years before Mexico mint changed to the machine made pillar dollars. The middle coin has no date, but the Bourbon shield of Phillip V (king from 1700-1746) would correspond to the same time period. The coin on the right appears to show the date 1731. 
  The coins can be distinguished as Mexico mint by the type of cross on the reverse, and the M with a small o above for Mexico. (The small o was to distinguish it from Madrid mint.) This mint mark is visible on the left side of the shield on coins 1 and 3.
  The coin on the left also has the assayer's initial - R, under the mint mark.  Assayer initials are not visible on the other 2 coins, but this was not unusual, as the coins were often carelessly made.
The cross side always showed castles and lions in 4 quadrants.
   The coin in the center also shows the denomination I on the right side of the shield side.  This meant it was a 1 real, one eighth the value of an 8 reales, the coin that people often call a "piece of eight".  Reales were minted in one half, one, two, four, and eight reales. 
  I will discuss the gold coins in another post tomorrow.  Hope this has been of some help, Sovereign.
moneypenny

Great answer, moneypenny: my thanks!

I have just added the correct titles to the images. Thanks for the prompt.

I didn't realise that machines minted coinage in Mexico so early (from 1732). I must look into this, maybe find an image of such a machine.

I also wonder if it is known who the assayer 'R' was.

So the silver coins are cobs. I will look into the etymology of that word.

Now I know excactly what these coins are, I can get a valuation for insurance purposes. Thank you v. much, moneypenny, and I look forward to your expert comments on the gold coin.

The assayer in Mexico at that time was Nicholas de Roxas. Sorry, should have put that in my last post. 
  Milled Pillar dollars were made beginning in 1732 in Mexico mint. This was very early compared to the Lima and Potosi mints which didn't start minting milled coins until 1752 and 1767.  See this link:
http://www.newworldtreasures.com/milledpillar.htm 
  There are photos at that site that will show how the coins were no longer unique, but instead perfectly round and regular.
  I am hoping to have your gold coin info sometime today. Sorry for the delay.   :)
Moneypenny

That's great! Your assistance in this matter is most appreciated, moneypenny. I reckon that with this, I can now go ahead and get the valuation for insurance.
No rush on the gold coin, please take your time.

Cheers!

Now to identification of the gold coin.  Spanish gold coins were called 'escudos', and were also cobs, just like the silver coins. They were hand struck so that each was unique. I cannot be as precise in identification as I was on the silver, since this coin doesn't carry as many details. My best guess is that the coin was minted in Santa Fe de Bogata, Columbia during the reign of King Philip IV. The style of cross and the letters partially visible on the shield side both lead me to this.  On the left side of the shield are clearly seen an R and an A under it.  One can also faintly see what might be an N above the R. Thus we would have NR, then a dot, then the A.  This could be the mint Nuevo Reino which was what they often called Bogota, and then the assayer initial which could be Alonso de Anuncibay who worked in the 1630's in that mint.  The shield is that of the Hapsburgs, which would have been the shield of Philip IV during the 1630's, and the obverse design of the coins was changed after 1651, so that is another clue.  There is no precise date visible however.  And unfortunately I cannot discern the denomination from this photo.  Escudos were minted as 1, 2, 4, and 8 escudos, and were worth 16 times as much as the silver coins.
  A note about the word 'cob' that you had referred to previously - most authorities believe it to come from "cabo de barra" or end of the bar, as the cobs were sliced off the end of a log of silver and then hand struck.  These logs were often misshapen, so the coins were rarely truly round, and as I said in my last post, speed in getting the gold and silver back to the king in Spain was what was important, not the attractiveness of the cob coins. 
  As a further aside - Santa Fe de Bogota was the first New World mint to make gold coins because of the gold that was found nearby, but tragically the first 2 years of the mint's production was lost in the sinking of the ships of the 1622 fleet, which included the famous 'Atocha'.  Can you imagine poor King Philip waiting in Spain for all that time, mostly broke because of the high cost of wars, etc., and then finding out much of the treasure he was awaiting would never reach him. But that's another story . . .
Hope this is helpful.
Moneypenny

I could not have asked for more, moneypenny  ;D
So that's where 'cob' comes from and why the coins are so misshapen.
Good for Britain that Philip lost his wealth  ;)

Very many thanks for the informed and detailed identification.

You really know your Spanish coinage, moneypenney, that's clear. Well done!

Sol

Ms Moneypenny how do you identify a coin that has no date and only a partial Shield? How do you identify those little coins with only partial stamps?? Curious as to how it's done,
Dave

I'd be glad to discuss identification clues on Spanish coins.  A bit of knowledge about the history of Spain is a necessary prerequisite to identifying coins with only a small amount of  detail. It takes quite awhile to feel comfortable enough with all the possible variables to identify cob coins reliably. And even after years of study, I am still sometimes stumped and have to look to my resource books. Of course, this forum is not a course in coin identification, but I will offer general information.
  The obverse side of cob coins from mints in the New World were of mostly two general designs - a shield of the reigning king, or a design known as "pillars & waves".  These were used at different periods of time between the 1500's and the mid 1700's.  The mints did not always produce the same designs as each other at the same period of time.  There were two main types of shield, that of the Hapsburgs and that of the Bourbons. Within these two there were variations as well.
  The reverse side was always (except for odd exceptions) a cross with castles and lions in the four quadrants of the cross.  The style of the cross helps to distinguish the mint.  And the style of the lions and the castles varied with assayer and time period.
  Other details that help are mintmarks, as each mint stamped its own mark, usually one or two capital letters. The location on the coin of this mintmark is also a helpful point.   The date of course is very helpful, but is often not visible.  And around the edge on both sides was a written legend. This also changed with time period, and was mostly in Latin.  The denomination is sometimes visible and was written in different styles that help to distinguish mint or time period.
  There are quite a few websites that offer more detailed information on Spanish cob coin identification, usually taking quite a few webpages to include all the pertinent info.  Spanish cobs are fascinating coins to study, precisely because there are so many variables and the fact that each one is unique, since they were each hand struck.  Below are a few photos of beautiful examples of cobs, both silver and gold.
 Moneypenny

Moneypenny: I'm guessing here, but if I was presented with an artefact - a coin, say - which didn't have detail sufficient for identification - then I would think immediately of analysing the metal. This has been done on quite a number of artefacts where, for example, provenance is questionable. Metal produced from ore of a particular place, then worked in a foundry, tends to have unique characteristics. This can be used to determine if the unknown artefact is from the same ore and time/place.

One such analytical method is X-ray Fluorescence, which examines the surface composition and is therefore non-destructive. Here are a couple of links to more on this:

Scientific analysis of the gold disc-on-bow brooch (http://www.lcm.rug.nl/lcm/teksten/teksten_uk/gold_disc_on_bow_brooch_uk.htm)
The MetExpert series of X-ray fluorescence analyzers (XRFA) and main applications (http://www.mt-berlin.com/charts/chart_08.htm)

Sol

All good stuff, Sol. It's a fair warning to fakers  ;)

Moneypenny,
Here's an odd Spanish gold coin that is somewhat finer in detail but it does appear to be hand made rather than milled.  It appears that the die was broken or was it twice struck? Note the image on the left.

The image on the right has vertical bars in the lower left quadrant where the usual device for The Low Countries were bars set at a 45 degree angle in this location. Any joy Moneypenny?
Doc

Wow, what a gorgeous coin!  Wouldn't I love to own something like that!  The story that goes with this early Spanish escudo is one of romance, intrigue, madness, politics, and death!  I believe this cob to be from the Seville Mint in Spain in the mid 1500's. The resolution on these photos is not the best, but to the right of the shield a capital letter 'S' can be discerned, the symbol for 'Seville'.  These escudos were some of the earliest Spain produced, and the detail is wonderful.  The legend around the edge is what tells the story.  The king at this time was Carlos I and he reigned with Juana (Johanna). However, this was not his bride, but his mother! The story is convoluted and full of intrigue.  Juana was often called 'La Loca' (the crazy woman), as it is said she lost her mind when her beloved husband Philippe died soon after they married, and lived in a world of her own until her death years later.  There are many websites, articles, and books written about this fabulous period in Spanish history and I would encourage anyone reading this to explore the story. You won't be disappointed!  The story includes enough chaos and mystery to thoroughly satisfy and confound you.
   As I was saying, the legend on the coin says - IOANA ET KAROLUS on the shield side, and HISPANIARUM REGES SICILIA on the cross side.  This shield was theirs at the time, and included Sicily as one of the provinces Spain ruled at the time.   The king's shield changed throughout the years cobs were produced, as the lands Spain claimed changed.  These coins were not usually dated at this time.   
You were correct Doc, that the coin appears to have been either double struck or struck with a broken die, both very common occurrences with these hand made cobs. The error can be seen most clearly at the top, on the cross side, where the S is doubled, and the ring of dots around the cross is doubled. Hard to tell which was the case here, at least for me. I'm sure there are some experts out there who could help us out.
Thanks for bringing this coin to our attention.  I love the history that it entails!
Moneypenny

(https://historyhuntersinternational.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=110.0;attach=149;image)
Following up on your clues I found a coin with far better relief on a  similar shield but the cross is different and it was minted in Granada. If you would be so kind as to explain the devices in the shield for our members. It would be easier for them to follow how you came to the circa date. Many thanks.
Doc

Well, you've come up with a more difficult one here, Doc.   You are correct that this escudo was minted in Grenada, and notice that the G is on the left of the shield, whereas on the last coin, the S for Seville was on the right side. There is so much variation to coins of this period.  As with the previous escudo, the reign is that of Carlos I and Juana.  It was during Carlos I's reign that the first New World mints were opened, and the designs there were, in some cases, different than the Old World mints.
  Spanish history at this time was incredibly complicated, and treachery, secrets, and even murders were commonplace in the Royal Courts.  Reality was more exciting and convoluted than the best fiction!  Carlos I was known as the first king of a united Spain.  He inherited his grandfather, Ferdinand II's realm. (Yes, of Ferdinand and Isabella, and that is yet another amazing story).  This realm included Aragon, Navarre, Naples, Sicily, and Sardinia. He also was joint king of Castile/Leon with Juana. He gained Grenada, and the Spanish possessions in the New World. When his grandfather Maximillian died in 1519 he inherited Hapsburg lands in Austria. Many other small provinces came to his rule including the Low Countries, Brabants, Flanders, Tyrol, Utrecht, etc.  All in all, Carlos I was King to 20 countries, Archduke to 1, Duke to 5, Count to 5, and Lord of 2.  Then he was crowned by the Pope in 1520 as Holy Roman Emperor (and known as Charles V), which showed the world that he was most powerful.   Some of the lands were gained through wars which Carlos seemed to be fighting throughout most of his reign.  And we can't forget his mother, Juana, who ruled with him in name only, as she lived in retreat in her castle most of the time, not able to appear in public in her state of insanity. She lived on until 1555, and the next year, Carlos abdicated to his son Philip II.  Two years later, Carlos died. 
   This coin's shield is very similar to that of Carlos' grandfather's, with the 4 quadrant design of castles and lions (signifying Castile and Leon) appearing in the upper left and lower right. On the lower left we see the designs for Aragon and that of Naples & Sicily.  And at the bottom center we see the Pomegranate, symbol for Grenada.
  And now I present a question for the coin experts out there - I am not sure about the two designs in the upper right of the shield (a cross, and a set of circles and lines) because I don't have my references at hand.  Any help out there?   ???
Once again, I encourage everyone to look into this era of Spanish history for some fantastic stories.
moneypenny

Mi' Gawd Moneypenny!
I have never known you to be stumped! Must be a fair bit of confusion here. I do know that Granada and Seville were called to account on the coin designs, a matter of precedence. Perhaps the confusion results from the acquisitions of the Spanish Crown and the pertinent fact that that no records are now in existence which properly date the events?  And. of course, the coins themselves are not dated.

Upper right hand quadrant?  Could it be Franche-Comete, Jerusalem, or the Siciliys? Or, and I beg pardon here, by any stretch of the imagination, could it be the Provinces?

A mystery coin, like those Ducats of the Sicilys?

For sure, a secret we do hope you will unravel. I will search my collection and those of my associates for more examples.

Thanking you for your days of work Moneypenny,
Moran Taing,
Doc

No, Doc, the coin is not rare or confusing. This shield design was used for many years. Just a bit early for me in my knowledge of cob design.  I agree that the compressed cross in the upper right section of the shield could be Jerusalem, as it is the same as the Jerusalem cross that was commonly used on the reverse of the coins.
   To see the variety of coin design, take a look at the coin photo I've attached.  When Carlos I opened the first mint in the New World in Mexico in 1535, they issued reales with a completely different design called the "pillars & waves" design. And even this design which was used under other kings as well, can be found in many variations. And of course another whole story behind the elements in the 'Pillars & Waves'. Oh, how we could go on! 
  This is precisely why cobs are so fascinating. So many designs, such differences in quality. Land finds, shipwreck finds - exciting!
  moneypenny

Aye,

so it's just the wee device to the right of the cross, correct? What I find confusing is that the shield, better we call it the coat of arms, on coins from Granada and Seville differ. Since these coins were not dated the only clue we have to go on is the devices used to even be close to the time. By your leave, I have posted the coin to Don MacKay in hopes that he might help us with the history.
Cheers,
Doc

(https://historyhuntersinternational.org/forum/1 Escudo Seville Mint Carlos & Juana COA.jpg)
I see that this 1 Escudo (S for Seville Mint) is also of Carlos & Juana. Though I know nothing of the subject, I know what I like :)

Solomon

Ah, it is so wonderful to be a member of such a generous and knowledgeable group of folks.  Don MacKay has kindly written back with the info on the upper right design on the Carlos & Juana escudo.  And I quote him here:
    "Here's the interpretation of the image in the upper right of your coin.
The kingdom of Navarre used a red eagle, substituted on 1212 by the red chains which still stand today as their coat of arms. On 16 July 1212 the king of Navarra, Sancho VII el Fuerte, took part in the battle of Las Navas de Tolosa, south of Spain, nowadays, far from the boundaries of the kingdom, between the territories of Castile and Leon and the Moors, being invited by the Pope Inocentium III to join the Allied Coalition  (Crusades) along with Alonso VIII, who commanded Castile and Pedro II of Aragon, except Alfonso IX of Leon, against the Moorish King (Caliph or Emir) of the Almohad dinasty, known as Miramamolin. The Moorish king inspired an arabic coalition and camped on Las Navas de Tolosa, and had the royal tent surrounded by a gold chain, which, assaulted by Knights of Navarre, was seized and put into their new coat of arms."
  Thanks so much for that, Don.   The information made me very curious about this part of Spanish history, and in searching the web, I found quite a few interpretations of the occurrences at the battle of Las Navas de Tolosa related to the chain.  Some accounts even state that the royal encampment was surrounded by a herd of camels on the inside, with a line of slaves with huge spears facing the enemy and the Caliph in royal robes inside this ring, reading continuously from the Koran!
  The following website quotes writings from the 1200's, which detail the battle.
  www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/SOURCES/tolosa.htm

Moneypenny

Well Moneypenny,
with that great piece of intel from Don MacKay the story on the device in the coat of arms on the shield becomes clear, doesn't it? The die makers must have gotten lazy because not all coins of Carlos and Johanna show as well, the full image.
Cheers,
Doc

Miz Moneypenny,
I have really liked following this story. I ahve an old coin I've carried for years and I wonder if you would give a littel look, please? I know its spanish and its a two real but not much more. One of the kids on the tug did the picture for me. Id really appreaciate it.
thanks,
Dave

Sorry to take so long in responding to your question about this nice silver cob.  The design of the obverse of this coin gives us a chance to explore the other style of cobs called "Pillars & Waves".  The two vertical pillars symbolize the Pillars of Hercules which mythologically spanned the Straits of Gibraltar, with one foot in Spain and the other in Morocco.  The waves symbolized the Atlantic Ocean, and the words PLUS ULTRA were stamped across the middle of the design, meaning "more beyond", a reference to the New World, which Spain felt it had the right to control.  The words PLUS ULTRA were divided up into 3 sections, thus we have PLU - SUL - TRA, with the U's written as V's.  Other parts of this tic-tac-toe design were the mintmark in the upper left and lower right, and the Assayer's initial in the upper right and lower left.  In the center top was the denomination. In this case a large 2.  In the center bottom was the minting date.
   On the reverse we see the familiar castles and lions within the Jerusalem cross. And once again we see the assayer's initial to the right, and a P for the Potosi Mint to the left.  The denomination was normally repeated at the center top, and the last 2 or 3 digits of the date at center bottom.  On this coin however, it is very difficult to make out the assayer, the denomination, or the whole date. The mintmark is very clear however. 
  Back to the obverse, the assayer is clearly seen as Y in the upper right corner.  In checking my references, I see that there was only one assayer in Potosi with the initial Y, and that was Diego de Ybarbouru, who was in charge from 1701-1727. His cobs are known to be crudely made as we can see on this 2 reales.  Much of the strike is poorly executed and many of the elements I've just described are difficult or impossible to make out in these photos.   I am fairly sure I can make out the date as 1722, but wouldn't swear to it on the basis of what I can see here.
   The king during this time was Philip V, the first Bourbon king of Spain, and grandson of Louis XIV of France.
   In a future post I'll explain the reason for switching to the Pillars & Waves design from the King's Shield design we had discussed in earlier posts.
   Hope this has helped you to appreciate your 2 reales, a little piece of history, Dave.
Moneypenny

Well Miz. Moneypenny you have made my lucky piece just that much more special now I know the history. Thank you for your time. Im very interested in the shields of the coins. Our divers would scrub on a piece and tell me all sorts of things and it was a mystery how they knew. I'd like to laern more about this and Im looking forward to your lesson.
Dave

Glad to have stirred your interest in these great coins, Dave.  But before discussing the Shield type coins again (as I have in past posts), I'd like to share some examples of "Pillars and Waves" coins that show other variations in the basic design. The earliest reales minted in the New World were of a much simpler Pillar and Wave design than the 2 reales we discussed last.  Look below this post to see some examples.  The Mexico City mint which was authorized by King Charles I (Carlos I) in 1535 began with this design but switched to a Shield type around 1572.  There were no 8 reales produced of the Pillars type at this time.  Other mints used variations of the type over the years. 
moneypenny

Deep Diver asked for more info on the shield designs of Spanish cobs, so here's a bit of info.
   As we've seen in this thread previously, the obverse of a cob was not always the royal shield, but it was the most common.  The shield design was changed often. Not only with a change of King, but also sometimes within a king's reign, and if that wasn't enough, there were variations from mint to mint.  And differences between Old World and New World mints as well.  So you begin to see why the study of Spanish cobs can be  complicated. 
  Why so many changes in design?  Mostly because Spain was almost continuously at war with some country or other throughout these 3 centuries (1500-1800).  They were always conquering and annexing countries into their realm, and when they did so, they represented the acquisitions on the royal shield.   Just as an example, take Philip III's reign.  His shield design changed at least 5 times in just over 20 yrs. Some of these changes were very subtle.
  Besides wars, Spain acquired lands through marriage, and an advantageous match which expanded the countries ruled was a very important consideration to choosing a mate. 
  The two main shield designs you will most likely see on cobs are the Great Hapsburg shield, and the Bourbon shield.   From Philip II in 1556 through Charles II in 1700, the Great Hapsburg shield will be found on those coins with a shield design. After 1700, Philip V brought in the Bourbon shield with the Fleurs-de-Lis added in the center.
   Since I am not a coin expert, but merely a student of this fascinating subject, I welcome comments and criticism of these posts so that we can all learn together.
moneypenny

Miz Moneypenny, I surely thank you for all the lessons. I'd like to learn more aboot the little things in the shields, like the Navarre thing. If I understand correctly each little thing on the coin had something to do with some conquest or territory and then they changed the shield on the coins. Is that about right? I'm still trying to figure how these young divers could see a coin with only half of a shield design and tell me which king it was.

Dave

Our new member Grubby has posted a coin. Let's do an ID together on this later today, O.K.? That's a great shield!
Doc

Hey Ole Grubstake,   that's a beauty.  You are a lucky guy!  This coin is very much like one that we did an I.D. on awhile back.  From the era of Carlos & Juanna, this escudo is in very good shape on this shield side.  Do you perhaps have a photo of the reverse?  If so, I could give some more info.  Thanks for posting it. 
Moneypenny

A beauty indeed. Does it have provenance?

Solomon

Solomon,
We do need to see the other side of the coin for Moneypenny to nail it down. What does it prove? Perhaps, it might be presumed, very early presence of the Spanish or English on the Coast of California. If more coins and/or artifacts, the shipwreck itself, might be discovered then Ole Grubby will have some new pages of history to write. Of course, something as prestigious as this doesn't rest on a single coin but it is a starting point for a physical and intellectual investigation, wouldn't you say?
Cheers,
Doc

Doc,

My starting point, Doc, is the provenance of the coin rather than the coin itself. Until that is established, we have just the coin.

Solomon

Solomon,
I am in complete agreement, as I stated. It is only a starting point. We need much more evidence in the form of dateable artifacts from Grubby's wreck site. But all in all it is still a beautiful coin with a history of its own. What a wonderful thing to take from the sea.
Doc

Hi Doc---What I have is a small bay with a large reef that runs from one point out 1/2 way through the bay. I have located TWO sites. The site with the older coins is all older Spanish coins. The site out in deeper water has coins that are newer and mostly Spanish, But I have found three Russian Kopecks and a small amount pf Portuguese, Dutch, and English coins as well as the gold Fanams from India. It is a incredible mystery that I work on in all my spare time. I am planning one last dive in a few weeks with my son. Bad weather is starting to hit our coast and my site is EXTREMELY dangerous. I do not use a boat and it is a long, long paddle out to the sites. I really at this time am recalcitrant about giving any more info. Just am having fun and training my son. You guys have been a big help and I look forward to your posts and interest. Hope these pics help. I believe the coin is a 1550's Carlos Johanna. I have a huge pile of Copper Maravedis that have come from this site and some silver. This is the only gold coin from the older site. I have been keeping a map of where I find each coin, with the interest of the reef guardians "Great Whites" it has been  nervous and stressful but a fun adventure. I am getting a Shark Shield for my diving this next year. I am still doing research on whether my VLF detector is why I have been harassed by these behemoths. Whites is working with me as to why every time I have used this type of detector versus the pulse induction detector I get harassed and run out of the water by these huge sharks.. I also have inquiries out as to how a shark shield might affect my VLF detector if at all. 9 dives so far and 6 of the dives have ended in me exiting the area. The other three dives I was using the Pulse induction model from Whites. I will gladly post pics of my site when get pics. I just purchased a Nikonos 5 camera and strobe. I want to take pics of the cannons I located on my last dive. I am caught between a rock and a hard spot. I do not want interference from the state or Archaeologists until I am damned well ready to deal with those parasites. It might be something my son will have to deal with in later years.I figure I have about 10 more years where I can make hard dives as I am 60 right now. The cold water affects me now where it never did before. Anyway you guys are a great bunch. Will post this other pic on the history site as well Doc. I also plan to enhance your site with info on California gold history and my finds. I have 4000 acres of the original Fremont land grant that I patrol and have access to for gold hunting as well as my historic claim just out of Mariposa, Ca. I do a lot of history research and feel your site would be enhanced and your international audience get a bang out of gold rush history. So as you can see I am a busy person. I do land as well as sea treasure hunting. I look forward to working with you guys here and on the History site with all the info I can provide you with. "Except the wreck locations" LOL

Grubby,

You answered your own question about the Sharks. Very Low Frequency is to a shark like blowing a silent whistle is to a dog, DINNER TIME!
LOL

We look forward to your posts and articles here. I might add Mariner is also a member here as is Cornelius and 99.
Cheers,
Doc :D

It's a great story and I hope, as promised, we will be able to learn much more.

I guess we'll have to wait on the provenance, which is a pity, because we will probably never know the coin's history, given that our esteemed member holds archaeologists in such low regard.

Solomon

yep Doc--------I agree that there are two separate sites. Thanks Doc for the offer on the bang stick. I already carry one in 223 cal. I carry it on my sleeve and it attaches very quickly to my short sling I always have with me. Now as to the coins. Yes the newer coins are at the cannon site area. The older coins are in a shallower area and I have some of the Maravedis counterstamped with dates of 1652 and 1641. There are other dates that I would have to look at but all are from the mid 1600's to the early 1600's. Some of the silver is from the late 1500's to the early 1600's. Only have the one gold coin from that site. I'll dig through my pile and try to find some I have cleaned and the dates are readable so I can scan them for your observation. I also recovered a bronze square hammered spike that I cleaned up. It is about 8 inches long. I also have an iron one about 7 inches long from the old site. Thought they were interesting. I also have a Chinese porcelain plate I found at the newer site. It has been dated from the mid-1700's. I have scans of these but this site will not take files that large. Anyway it's off to la la land for me. Spent the day splitting winter firewood with my son and we're beat. Will be back tomorrow to chat with you guys.

Great finds! What camera did you use to take the photo of the coins, it shows great detail. I have some that if I could get the right shot (as clear as yours) then I could post them.
Again very, very lucky man, watch those GW`s. Don't believe they wont bite because you have a tinny on your back. 99*

PS, Not insulting you by saying you are just lucky. By what I've seen, you're very good at hunting.

It'd be great if the member could find the time to post here directly. I also think it would be good if Diving Doc could discuss diving with him.

Regards,
Sovereign

Hello.
I am new to this site, having found it while doing research on some coins that have recently come into my possession.
I have a large number of cob coins from the Cabalva and some 8 real coins from the Johanna, as well as  a few daalders from the Campen and a few ungraded coins from the Flying Hart.
These are fascinating to me and I am trying to learn as much as possible.  I have ordered a book on cob coins and some books on shipwrecks and recovery. 
The coins from the Cabalva and the Johanna have been graded by Ships Log Ltd.  I have googled my fingers to the bone and can't find anything on this company.  Are the grades legitimate?  What is the best way to sell a collection like this?  How can I learn more about cobs and mechanically struck coins of this era?
I also have some small silver coins that were with the Flying Hart coins that I haven't been able to identify.  They are well worn, fairly round but not mechanically struck and weigh about 2 grams.  They seem to have a lion with a cross above it on one side and a horse and rider on the other.  There is unidentifiable writing around the outside.  (My camera is temporarily not working.)
I love this site and am looking forward to reading past and future postings!
Okie

Welcome to History Hunters, Okie   :D

I moved your post to here, where Moneypenny and Diving Doc may be able to help you. They have just flown out to be with me in the UK, so please be patient.

No doubt they would appreciate seeing images, so the delay will perhaps be suitable for both you and them.

Thank you for your kind words. I do hope that you enjoy the site and our company.

Oops, I got my coins mixed up.  The cob coins were from the Johanna and the mechanically minted were from the Cabalva.  The mint dates are from 1773-1817.  My favorite coin has a drilled hole, probably worn on a chain around a sailor's neck. 
Thanks for moving my post.  I will learn the etiquette soon.
Okie

It's a bit late, I know, but now that Doc and Moneypenny have returned from the UK, perhaps one will look at this.

Cheers!
Solomon

many years I have lot of examples of similar fakes made in antigua guatemala  so  ??? with the micriscope posible to see marks of lost wax tecnique

2 reales mexico (carlos) is one of the most and beter reproduced...los dos reales de mexico (carlos) es uno de las monedas lo mas y mejor falsificados  arany

Here is my Spanish cob coin I found while metal detecting. I was found recently in a farm field on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. The coin weighs 1.95 grams and is about 16 X17 mm. Because of the size and weight I believe it to be a 1 reale. I Also believe it is a shield type. If anyone can add to this, possibly with a date range I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Ed Donovan

Welcome to History Hunters Born2Dtect,   Hope you enjoy participating here.  You seem to be fairly knowledgeable yourself about Cob coinage judging from the vocabulary you use in reference to your coin.  It is difficult with these small denominations to find much information in what's visible on the strike.   I will look into the details further tomorrow, but right now I will say that I am probably going to agree with you that it is a 1 real, and it appears it might be from the Potosi mint.  The photos you have included are excellent quality and show the coin on it's side. Each photo could be rotated counter-clockwise to view the shield and cross upright.
   16 mm is very small, a bit smaller than a US dime, and under 2 grams weight is very light, even for a 1 real.  Since 8 reales weighed in at about 27 grams, a 1 real can weigh over 3 grams, or one-eighth the weight of an 8 reales. But of course they are rarely found complete.
   I haven't offered you much information about dating your coin. This is more difficult. 
   Eastern Shore Maryland is a rather interesting place to find a cob. The story of how it got there might be fascinating in itself. 
   I'll try to find out more for you. Meanwhile, if we have any coin experts out there, please help us out.  Thanks.    Moneypenny

Very Good Moneypenny!

I found the weight to be confusing. I had thought it might be a half-real but it has almost a full shield. We had some halves a bit earlier and of course the 'scalloped' cross might make it a Potosi coin as you suggested.
Cheers,
Doc

Hello Born2Dtect and welcome to History Hunters   :D

That is a very nice find you have there. I look forward to seeing more. 8)

   Here's a bit more information that may help narrow down the identification of this coin.   For now I am going to assume this is a coin from the Potosi mint, one of the new world's most prolific mints as we've discussed in this thread in the past.  The Lima and Cartagena mints also used this style of cross, but those coins are much rarer.
   The style of the shield is the best help for narrowing down a time period.  This is a Hapsburg shield and Carlos II was the last Hapsburg king of Spain, ruling up until 1700. So that puts us prior to that date. We also know that Potosi switched to a Pillars & Waves design in 1652, so that narrows it further.  The Potosi mint began in 1574, so we have come down to a 75 yr. period. (1574-1652).  If a date was visible, that would help because Potosi coins prior to 1617 were undated. In this case, on a coin this small, seeing a date, even if it was originally there, is rare. 
    In viewing earlier posts on this thread you will find photos of various coin styles.  Some of these will allow you see how the designs look when they are clear and complete. 
    Sorry I can't be more specific.  I was hoping we had some visitors who are more expert than myself to help out.   Good luck with your coin hunting, Born2Dtect!       
moneypenny   :)

Arany,
could you post some pictures of examples of the counterfits you are discussing.
It would be most helpful to our members.
Cheers,
Doc

Hey 99,
Grubby was using the camera I sent him, a SD-100 Power shot. It is an older model but you can still get a waterproof housing for it. I sent that to Grubby as well. It will be interesting to see his u/w shots in the Spring when the seas go down.  When I get down to dive with you I will be bring my Casio EX-S600 with u/w case. These cameras are so neat and small you can stuff it in a BC pocket and the flash works under water as well. The very best part is that you can shoot video with the camera with a 1 or 2 Gig chip. Remember how bulky and u/w video used to be? This fits in one hand!!
Cheers,
Doc

 yes is very important to compare, lamentably today I don have a pictures, maybe later I can fainded sameting..... si es muy importante para comparar, pero no tengo fotos para publicar, talvez un dia sea posible , la calidad de las monedas falsas de antigua guatemala son exelentes, tambien los  centenarios  monedas de oro de mexico son falsificados de oro muy bajo quilate y chapeados del oro puro, exelentes reproducciones !

I agree Arany,
It would be very good to see these examples posted along side real coins to educate the membership.
Cheers,
Doc

than you  doc  is very important  the best way o meybe the only way to compare  is take a picture and the negativ film (large size) superpose bout negativs to see the diference betven good coin and fake coin... la mejor forma de comparar las monedas falsas con los originales, es de tomat foto y los negativos (tamano grande) comparar superponer contra la luz para veer la diferencia...arany