History Hunters International

Evening  bush pilot:  Do you wish to use my OUIJI board? Seriously I have a friend in Green Valley, Az.,  that is an expet on copper culture. He has a piece of wood from the handle of a tool that has been partialy converted into copper from the ancient copper rmines of crete. I will contact him when I go to Tucson in a few weeks and invite him to join us.

Real de Tayopa

HIO : *****  on the thought process, and presentation..   Loved it.  It also gives me a basis for a phychological analisis  -- picture or the author ? heheheh

Real de Tayopa 

allo  mi flea loving gal : Nah, everything is normal, just that life can be worth living, no? Think of all of the unknown and lost things out there that are just waiting to be rediscoverwed and history to be rewritten.  The idea that one can actually be there and participate is an exhilarating experience.

If it wouldn't shake the hallowed halls and dignity of my loved HH , I would send you an undignified smooch     ,  also to shoily and all of my other  HH friends.

Glad to be back, and am now ready to cross foils??  no, sabers with you all. (doc knows foil usage, but not sabres.)

Don Jose de La mancha

ALLO Ladies & Gentlemen:  After a long, and probably welcomed on your part, absence, the proverbial black sheep has returned, Rejoice Ye faithful and give thanks, let the poor fatted calf be sacrificed. Let there be dancing and merry making.

Since it is very late, I will only say ."After spending a bit of time reviewing the posts, I have come to the conclusion that most have missed an obvious point which was posted at the start. The mission Jesuits did not mine as such.

 It has been hinted that perhaps there were two parallel groups of the Jesuits in operation.  One the Mission Priests who feasted or starved with his flock.  The other, the Mining  Jesuits, the professional business Jesuits -Miners- that were involved in the actual mining, not the mission Priests.

This group did not wear the traditional garb of the mission Jesuits, but the clothing of the  general populace. In all ways they apparently were absorbed into the civilian populace and did not associate with the mission Jesuits.

It was admitted to my present associate, while in a closed audience with the then no.2 of the Jesuit society ,  "yes, we were involved with the take over of the North Americas from Spain with the collaboration the Dutch, however we don't do that sort of thing any more".

Since any revolt takes a tremendous amount of money, the Society engaged in mining.  Being the representatives of the Lord,  they easily convinced the Native population to show them any evidence of mineralization, so had first chance for the best properties.

Moving the mined metal to Europe clandestinely  resulted in establishing the leap frog system of using small missions one day apart to move it to Matamorros, then to Rome.

Don Jose de La Mancha   alias   Till Eulenspiegel

Hola  w-opper:   I noticed that you have picked a thoroughly apropo signature. congratulstion on having mastered basic self analysis correctly.  We agee on something after all. 

Till Eulenspiegel    alias     Don Jose de La Mancha   :>D

HIO:

As he spoke he became very agitated,   he described  the problems that they had in traveling through that type of jungle.

As he talked, I suddenly found myself back some 12 years when I was also traveling through that same jungle.   I was backpacking with a friend looking for lost Mayan ruins.

I distinctly remembered the fun of cutting a trail where needed, it wasn't anything like the movies.  I would cut a vertical slash to the left, then one to  the right.  Then, using a forked stick to keep the vegetation away from me,  I made a horizontal cut as high as I could reach . The vines etc., fell to the ground in front of you.  I then stepped on top of it for the next cut.  I quickly found out that the saying "a man is as sharp as his machete" had  a very real basis.

 I remember the first time that I made the overhead cut, shush, I was suddenly covered with dirt, old leaves and hundreds of irritated insects, all landing with their defensive apparatus and stingers in position.  I probably spent an hour getting the dirt  etc out of my eyes, and getting rid of angry insects that were biting and stinging with a vengeance. 

It seems that  my machete wasn't very sharp and instead of cutting through the vines,  it merely shook then violently.  I also remember  a certain hollow vine that contained a co-exisitng  colony of aggressive ants.  You simply did not cut that vine or pay the consequences.

This would go on for days, then suddenly one would hit a spot that was almost open dry scrub.   When it came time to make a camp in the late afternoon, I had to clear out a circle large enough for both of our Mosquito net bed combinations.  We slept on the ground.  My Indian friend and his companions did not have such luxury so simply slept (?) rolled up on the ground trying to hide from the hungry mosquito's.

At times they were so thick that one would inhale some each breath if you didn't have a net. The hot humid jungle air was soo miserable, especially wrapped up, that it was a toss up which you would endure.  With my self designed  net/bed combination, we could crawl inside, then strip down to try to cool off enough to sleep.  Most of the tome I was simply covered with sweat and only half asleep-sheesh, the untalked of joys of exploring.

I also discovered why the people that live there always go around with their pants legs rolled up half way.  I made a fool of myself by suggesting that they were crazy to do this since the insects could easily find dinner, They just politely smiled. 

I quickly found that when I stepped on the vines etc, I soon became covered with ticks  of all sizes and meanness.  I remember the first night at camp, I was sitting by the fire when I noticed that my Levis were somehow moving.   A closer look showed that they were swarming with ticks of all sizes.  I almost had a screechng fit since they are my pet phobia.

I pulled them off and proceeded to run a burning stick over them and eventually  removed MOST of them.  I do not have to go into an explanation how I felt the next morning when I had to put them on again. sigh.

We then proceeded to cut the legs of our Levis halfway to the knee.  Then on the trail we would every so often take a handful of leaves  and just wipe our legs down.  This eliminated most of the buggies.  "MOST 

I remembered that one of the biggest problems was simply water.  I hate to think of the many insects or unnamed wriggly things that I had to strain out with my teeth to get a drink from a small pool or plant.

Yes, I was reliving with my friend as he talked of his problems and trip.

My reverie was interrupted when I heard him say, "  Pobre Don Hugo was the first to  be bitten by the green tree snakes"   We couldn't bury him so we just left him after dividing up his things". 

I had heard off these green tree snakes, but had never encountered them. "where were they and why did they attack you"?   "They were in the vines" " he replied, "when we would cut the vines they became angry and tried to bite us"

"Before we reached the bay we lost two more men to them". 

"When we finally reached the bay, we then looked for the ----. After a week we finally found it.  It was filled with many things, such as a small statue of the Virgin and a Cross of gold"

"We were now running out of food,  so we decided that two would go to Belize to buy more":

"As a precaution against the British, we covered up the spot, then moved our camp a few kilometers  towards the Mexican border"

"A week passed by without our friends appearing, when a terrific hurricane hit us.  After it had calmed down, we were getting desperate from almost no food,  so tried hunting and fishing in spite of the British patrols.

A few days later our missing friends arrived, they were hungry, tired, and had brought no food".    �@

He appeared  a bit agitated from his memories, so, to break the tension,  I asked Luchi to bring us some fresh coffee and sweet rolls - I had seen her shadow on the wall through the open door,  so I knew that she was snooping as usual. hehe..  She quickly came bouncing in her usual fresh breezy way with the refreshments.  I thanked her and suggested that she had work to do elsewhere , she looked at me in obvious disappointment, wrinkled her cute nose, pouted, then left.   

My friend slowly drank his black Mexican coffee while eating a sweet roll, he was obviously lost in his memory of that time. I patiently waited for him to continue, trying to appear not too interested by watching the humming birds.
After nursing his empty cup for a while he commenced to talk again.

"when my Amigos / friends appeared, I was very mad at them, they had brought no supplies.  However they soon explained this.  They had arrived at Belize with no problems.  They had stayed at a small hotel, complete with chinchis / bedbugs, and the next morning, after eating breakfast, commenced to buy the supplies.   All was going well, when someone reported to the Migra ( British immigration)  that they were using Mexican money, which while legal, was suspicious since they were obviously Mexican.. 

The Migra picked them up for not having any legal papers and put them in the big prison in Belize.  A few days later the Hurricane hit Belize.  It destroyed one of the walls of the prison and they managed to escape along with many other prisoners and returned to the camp site.

It was decided to return to Mexico since we could not do anything more.  It was on the return trip that we lost Don Xavier to those green snakes two days later.  Don Miguel went a day later, we never knew why other than he was foaming at the mouth?

The return took a day longer because the hurricane had downed many trees and flooded the area.

After we has returned home we discussed how we would handle the return trip.  However,  as usual, we did nothing for months, then years.   I finally decided that the time had come, but  I could not find my former partner?  He had disappeared".

He leaned back, sighed,  and looked pointedly at the still hot and partially filled coffee pot.  I took the hint and asked him if perhaps he would like another cup of coffee. He brightened and politely agreed..

I then asked him, " and just how may I help with your problem"?

"Well Don Jose, I need some advice and perhaps a bit of help from you, if you are so inclined"    "How may I serve you" I replied.  He said "Do know the country between Belize and Quintanna Roo, Mexico"?  "Of course "I replied. "As you know there is only one entrance into the bay, since it is in Belize water, it is patrolled by the British".  We had come to the conclusion that the treasure could only be moved by boat, but we would lose everything if we were boarded by a British Patrol boat. since all treasure belongs to the Queen".  "Just how would you handle this  Don Jose"?

It was now my turn to nurse my coffee cup while I thought of how.  After a bit I suddenly had an idea which I explained to him.  He listened intently then after a bit of thought,  agreed,

"Don Jose, I can take you almost to the exact spot by a small boat".  From there we can load the larger boat and hide it".  We discussed just how we would try to smuggle it out of British waters for the next two days, then I suggested that he return home, try once more to locate his surviving partner, then contact me.. 

I gave him sufficient money for this, then waited patiently for a few weeks while watching  Luchi bouncing around out of the corner of my eye.  Then suddenly all communication was stopped.  �@

Don Jose de La Mancha   -   Till Eulenspiegel

HOLA Mano derecho del Diablo Bart Y Estimada gente:   ( Hi right hand of the devil  Bart and respected Peeps)

There are may common substances  used for secret writing, running from A - z, including  salt water, milk, saliva, certain body fluids, and others.   From what little information that I have, it appears that that the secret writing was normally used to reference a document or a section of the Bible as the key.

In this way, unless one knew which  reference materiel was to be used  -  this would be coded within the code -  it would still be unknown even if someone  developed the writing.

As for the Jesuits shipping precious metals to Rome, I could clear this up, but since it is still in the final development stages,  I can only say, "they did this by a leapfrog setup of missions situated one days animal travel apart ending below Matamorros. where it was lightered  out to the waiting ship..
 
As the Baroyeca Mission states, the Brother was credited with finding the Silver and late working it.

Till Eulenspiegle     alias     Don Jose de La Mancha

more

Good morning  Peeps:

This bit of history tends to bely the idea that "all" missions were poor and impoverished.

This gives the credit of the discovery and subsequent working of one of the rich silver mines to the Resident Priest. It also states that he used it for the  betterment of his parish.  Who knows how much was shipped to his superiors?

Today  the tower is mostly gone.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Morning W_ OPPER;     Actually  the Iguana is a fine food.  It has a whitish meat and tastes similar to chicken.   However, the birds were our mainstay.

 Contrary to popular opinion, a jungle is not the best place for  obtaining food, one can quickly clean out an area of available food, you need a semipermanent camp where you can plant.

I estimate that we spent 2 - 3 hrs daily just looking for food, water, and a camping site.   I came to appreciate our ancestors  that were hunters and gatherers and why simple planting would revolutionized their life style.

However, all in all, I would not exchange the experience for another.  It resides in a hallowed place in my memory  banks.  It was partially responsible for my being elected into the elite "Explorers Club".

www.explorers.org

Don Jose de La Mancha       alias (Till Eulenspiegle)

HI bk after a period of intermitant computer and out of town on business.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As he spoke he became very agitated,   he described  the problems that they had in traveling through that type of jungle.

As he talked, I suddenly found myself back some 12 years when I was also traveling through that same jungle.   I was backpacking with a friend looking for lost Mayan ruins.

I distinctly remembered the fun of cutting a trail where needed, it wasn't anything like the movies.  I would cut a vertical slash to the left, then one to  the right.  Then, useing a forked stick to keep the vegetation away from me,  I made a horizntal cut as high as I could reach . The vines etc., fell to the ground in front of you.  I then stepped on top of it for the next cut.  I quickly found out that the saying "a man is as sharp as his machete" had  a very real basis.

 I remember the first time that I made the overhead cut, sheesh, I was suddenly covered with dirt, old leaves and hundreds of irritated insects, all landing with their defensive apparatus and stingers in position.  I probably spent an hour gettng the dirt  etc out of my eyes, and getting rid of angry insects that were biting and stinging wth a vengence. 

It seems that  my machete wasn't very sharp and instead of cutting throuh the vines,  it merely shook then violently.  I also remember  a certain hollow vine that contained a co-exisitng  colony of agressive ants.  You simply did not cut that vine or pay the consequences.

This would go on for days, then suddenly one would hit a spot that was almost open dry scrub.   When it came time to make a camp in the late aftenoon, I had to clear out a circle large enough for both of our Mosquito net bed combinations.  We slept on the ground.  My Indian friend and his companions did not have such luxury so simply slept (?) rolled up on the ground trying to hide from the hungry mosquitos.

At times they were so thick that one would inhale some each breath if you didn't have a net. The hot humid jungle air was soo miserable, especially wrapped up, that it was a toss up which you would endure.  With my self designed  net/bed combination, we could crawl inside, then strip down to try to cool off enough to sleep.  Most of the tme I was simply covered with sweat and only half asleep-sheesh, the untalked of joys of exploring.

I also discovered why the people that live there always go around with their pants legs rolled up half way.  I made a fool of myself by suggesting that they were crazy to do this since the insects could easily find dinner, They just politly smiled. 

I quickly found that when I stepped on the vines etc, I soon became covered with ticks  of all sizes and meanness.  I remember the first night at camp, I was sitting by the fire when I noticed that my levis were somehow moving.   A closer look showed that they were swarming with ticks of all sizes.  I almost had a screechng fit since they are my pet phobia.

I pulled them off and proceeded to run a burning stick over them and eventully  removed MOST of them.  I do not have to go into an explanation how I felt the next morning when I had to put them on again. sigh.

We then proceeded to cut the legs of our levis halfway to the knee.  Then on the trail we would every so often take a handful of leaves  and just wipe our legs down.  This eliminated most of the buggies.  "MOST 

I remembered that one of the biggest problems was simply water.  I hate to think of the many insects or unnamed wriggly things that I had to strain out with my teeth to get a drink from a small pool or plant.

Yes, I was reliving with my friend as he talked of his problems and trip.

My reverie was interrupted when I heard him say, "  Pobre Don Hugo was the first to  be bitten by the green tree snakes"   We couldn't bury him so we just left him after deviding up his things". 

I had heard off these green tree snakes, but had never encountered them. "where were they and why did they attack you"?   "They were in the vines" " he replied, "when we would cut the vines they became angry and tried to bite us"

"Before we reached the bay we lost two more men to them". 

"When we finally reached the bay, we then looked for the ----. After a week we finally found it.  It was filled with many things, such as a small statue of the Virgin and a Cross of gold"

"We were now running out of food,  so we decided that two would go to Belize to buy more":

"As a precaution against the British, we covered up the spot, then moved our camp a few kilometers  towards the Mexican border"

"A week passed by without our friends appearing, when a terrific hurrican hit us.  After it had calmed down, we were getting desperate from almost no food,  so tried hunting and fishing in spite of the British patrols.

A few days later our missing friends arrived, they were hungry, tired, and had brought no food".    �@

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. the pictures are of my partner, except for the middle one
 
 
 

Ladies and Gentlemen;  I have  been away for various reasons for a few days.  I have spent the past 1/2 hr reviewing  the posts, fascinating.

This position of provable factual evidence (?) as against  circumstantial, predominate or so-called popular published evidence, can lead to an open or dead end depending upon your particular stand upon the accuracy and UNBIASED (?)  version of Historical Archaeology.  In many cases, neither will be correct.

I am reminded  about published history being true regarding things that happened during my lifetime alone.   Things that I was privy to in WW-2 in the Pacific campaign against the Japanese.  On one side we have the Allies version, on the other, the Japanese  version as is presently being taught in their educational system.  The Japanese version is completely at odds with what I saw and experienced,  but I wonder which will be accepted as the truth in say 2407 ?  Both will have come from an accredited source.

The same applies to any Jesuit documents pro or con,, obviously most will be self serving .

I have the unique luxury of being a bit smug since I have one of the so called lost or legendary,  nonexistent Jesuit mines.  This was the result of sifting through many  bits of evidence over the years.   Some of which can only be called almost fictitious, yet did have a grain of truth, which, when combined with other knowledge, turned out to be a step forward, but with no historical or otherwise backing.

I suppose that it could be crudely compared to sifting through the ILLIAD looking for bits of data on the possibility of Troy existing..  As data is developed and possibly  proven, or assumed creditable, it can be used to go both backwards and forwards in conjunction with other bits of unproven or proven stories or legends.  Like a three dimensional puzzle, one leads to the other until the final complete picture has been drawn.

About the "WHOPPER" remark, I started that.  He is a personal friend and we kid each other mercilessly in other forums and by instant messenger.   He is a tireless researcher,  but a bum and a louse,  stillll.hehe.

If we are to stick to proven or factual data in here  I apparently should not finish the true story to Morgan's treasure, since at the moment I am the only one privy to the details since I was the principal.

To forstall any questions or remarks about proving this at the moment, let me state--"All posts in here, as well as other sites, are openly available on the internet."  Since this project still waiting the final permits, until they are actually received, I will not go into details.

You may balance that as you wish. I agree that this appears on the surface as possibly anecdotal evidence only at the moment., however balance that aginst my never posting a falsehood.--

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s.  W-opper, I plead guilty to the manana complex having lived in Old Mexico too long,  plus many other things taking priority, apol., I will have to finish it in order to particpate in the discussion.

OHIO:  Hmm might find it for free or barter? mnm  Wopper?  A piece of the action  please  hehehhe.

Greedy   Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. unfortunately we have a previous agreement  sniffff. I must start reading the fine print.

OHIO:

First) the states water rights do have a bearng, witness the fiasco in Florida. and the East cost states.

Second) just how "long" are' an heirs rights effecitve?  Especially if If they have no knowlege of it's existance unlil after it has been recovered  nor have made any physical effort at a recovery ---??

Third ) Legally recovered and marketed?  Between the first and the later, many many years and expenses can pass.

At the moment  Britland seems to have the most logical answer..

Don Jose de La Mancha

HMMM,    What about federally controlled waters? what about the states declared rights?

As for winning a case, fine, but what is left after a legal court division and legal costs? 

Where is there any incentive to possibly spend years and money tracking down and recovering a treasure, Archaeological site,  ship, or lost mine?  Titled Archaeologists in general have neither the time, money, nor interest and inclination for this, sooo? 

In fact most recent finds or locations have come about by the individual having an interest in the project,  both intellectually and financially.  One begets the other no? The individual expends time, "talent", and money in the search, shouldn't he be rewarded appropriately?

This also brings up the question, should an accredited Archaeologist be morally/legally  bound to never keep anything in a / his private collection as a "conflict of public interests"?

In other words, if it is of sufficient value for one to consider it for his private collection then it must be equally or more valuable  in a public museum display for all to enjoy and learn from.  He/ she can go the museum to study it the same as anyone else.

This comes from one that has seen some fantastic private collections in the homes of his Archaeological friends, who seem to consider themselves as privileged  above the law by reason of their title...

The line forms on the right --->

A frustrated Don Jose de La Mancha