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Author Topic: Spanish Galleons Lost in Hurricane of 1750  (Read 1424 times)
Description: La Galga, El Savador and others
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Baja Bush Pilot
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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2008, 05:49:07 PM »

"On August 18, 1750, the Spanish ships, La Galga, Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe, El Salvador, Nuestra Senora de Mercedes, Nuestra Senora de Soledad, Nuestra Senora de los Godos, and a Portuguese ship called the San Pedro, cleared Havana, Cuba for Cadiz, Spain, carrying treasure and New World goods."

Did the horses on Assateague come from La Galga?
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Respectfully,

Barry
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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2008, 06:02:14 PM »

Barry,

To tell the truth I think only the ponies know for sure. The legend says 1600's Galleon but according to my knowledge of Early Spanish Navigation in the New World they did not try and sail against the Gulf Stream which is damn near impossible. Like you I also find it improbable that the Spanish would be taking horses back to Spain unless they were the personal property of some Noble. A puzzle for sure, with not enough pieces.

Cheers,

Doc
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Truthdetector
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2008, 10:23:55 PM »

I posed a number of questions in my first post that no one has yet addressed. However subsequent posts from forum members are now muddying the water. Doc posted a link to an internet site about the ponies. If Doc will take the time he will find that the Santo Cristo is a literary fiction used by Marguerite Henry, the author of Misty of Chincoteague. She did no research in Spanish archives. She merely needed a name and imaginary circumstances to tell the story of the legendary Spanish galleon. There is no such ship. It is obvious that this site has no supportable source as they do not even know the date of the �wreck.� But this site was not intended to be used as a historical source anyway. The question has been posed about why the horses were being sent from America to Spain. First, the only person who said they were headed from Panama to America was Marguerite Henry in Misty of Chincoteague. Her book was not intended to be historically accurate. It was intended to entertain children. This account has been often repeated in tourist literature. The second and most obvious fact to consider is that a ship from Spain headed for Mexico or South America would not find itself off of the Virginia coast. The trade route was from C�diz to the Canaries to Puerto Rico or Porto Bello. The north flowing Gulf Stream would be something to avoid.  Now for the facts.

When Mel Fisher was excavating the Santa Margarita in 1980 his team found a horseshoe and some horse bones. When I interviewed Dr. Eugene Lyon in 1982 about this he said that there were no archival documents that put horses on board but there was the archaeological evidence that they were. His theory was that some of the soldiers on board were returning to Spain with their horses. When he asked me if La Galga had any soldiers on board I told him there were sixty. His response was that he would not be surprised if there were horses on board La Galga.

I have had several people of Chincoteague tell me that their grandparents conveyed to them as children the legend that the horses came from a Spanish shipwreck. These accounts predate Misty of Chincoteague. These same people also told me that legend says the ship was lost in an inlet which closed up. They even can point within hundreds of yards where that is.
In November 1749, there was a great storm which sent a fifteen foot wall of water over Assateague. An account from the north end said that only five out of five hundred head of cattle and one out of sixty horses survived. This livestock was owned by people on the mainland. The Spanish wreck occurred in 1750 and shortly afterwards it was noted that some very small horses were running wild on Assateague.
     
Satdiver says the precedent in the Sea Hunt case was for the issue of abandonment only. As I put forth in my first post, a court must have valid jurisdiction BEFORE it can reach ANY legal determination. For the court to reach any conclusion on abandonment of Spanish ships there must be artifacts recovered from the actual defendant Spanish vessels. As I said in my first post this is an in rem action. So what I am saying is that the question of abandonment of Juno and La Galga could not be legally addressed unless they were actually found. I recommend you read Some Legal Troubles with Treasure: Jurisdiction and Salvage by David R. Owen, 16 J. Mar. L. & Com. 139.
   
Satdiver also said that artifacts from these ships are on display at the National Park Service Visitors Center. (Not Yet) If La Galga and Juno have not in fact been found as the court transcripts do make clear then what ships did these artifacts come from? The artifacts produced were never correlated with the historical accounts of the ships. Nearly all of the artifacts recovered came from the �Juno� site. As I said in my first post, the Commonwealth of Virginia says that they did not come from the Juno. If you contend that La Galga and Juno were actually found in the Sea Hunt case please state the evidence here. I hope it�s not a newspaper article. And the statement you made that I took the statement made by Spain�s counsel out of context is not so. That statement is consistent with what the Commonwealth of Virginia said as well as Sea Hunt. Everything that I have said here is already documented in The Hidden Galleon with archival sources. I hope you all will read it and then bring your criticisms to this forum. I am sure you are all interested in getting to the truth of the matter.   I am sure that Doc will be glad that I pointed these things out as he said in a post yesterday in the Odyssey forum that he �objects to the corruption of History.�

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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2008, 11:33:36 PM »

Truthdetector,

Bravo Again Sir!

Doc
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2008, 01:37:45 AM »

Truthdetector,

My apologies for muddying these waters.  I asked these questions because I have a great interest in this subject as I saw the horses swim several times when I lived in the area.  I don't consider myself naive but I believed the park ranger knew what he was talking about when he said the horses were from a wrecked Spanish ship bringing them to America.  I do now realize no ship would have sailed against the Gulf Stream and the horses were on their way back to Spain, probably accompanying their owners.  I ask a lot of dumb questions on this board because I am here to learn.

I know nothing about maritime or salvage laws, and the closest I have ever come to diving is falling off a surf board and hitting my head on the bottom.  I read your post and asked the questions out of curiosity.  I'm sorry I distracted the focus from your original issues, but thanks for the information.
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Barry
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« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2008, 07:32:38 PM »


The Treaty of Paris 1763 (photo of original document) that ended what in the United States is known as the French and Indian War.  This treaty forced France to cede to Great Britain all her lands in North America extending west to the Mississippi River.  The definitive Treaty of Peace and Friendship between his Britannick Majesty, the Most Christian King, and the King of Spain.  Concluded at Paris on the 10th of February, 1763.  The King of Portugal acceded to the terms of the treaty the same day.


Hello Truthdetector and Greetings,

Allow me to offer a belated welcome to HH.  Thank you very much for your posts which touch on some complex and evolving issues related to Underwater Cultural Heritage and the law of salvage and finds.  Your earnest and forthright approach with regard to commanding the details of the subject reflect to your credit and are appreciated.

I am not able, nor do I consider myself fully qualified to answer all of the points you have raised so perceptively with respect to the Juno & Galga.

If I may be allowed to politely adjust the frame of the discussion before moving toward the center of the historical and archaeological picture we are all trying to accurately depict:  you raise several strong points.  Sea Hunt did, of course, file an in rem admiralty Motion to Arrest Two Unidentified Shipwrecked Vessel(s) et al. Pleadings at the District Court level.  It is also a well-taken point that the district level pleadings condition Sea Hunt�s characterization of the vessels identities as believed to be Juno and La Galga, as you soundly state; however, at the Appellate level the court summarized Sea Hunt�s position more starkly:

The Commonwealth of Virginia has asserted ownership over LA
GALGA and JUNO pursuant to the Abandoned Shipwreck Act of
1987 (ASA), 43 U.S.C. SS 2101-06 (1994).
The ASA gives states title
to shipwrecks that are abandoned and are embedded in the submerged
lands of a state. See id. S 2105(a) & (c). Sea Hunt is a maritime sal-
vage company based in the Eastern Shore of Virginia. The Virginia
Marine Resources Commission granted Sea Hunt permits to explore
for shipwrecks off the Virginia coast and conduct salvage operations.
Sea Hunt began to explore for shipwrecks within its permit areas and
has spent about a million dollars in conducting remote sensing, sur-
vey, diving, and identification operations. Sea Hunt claims that its
efforts have resulted in finding the remains of LA GALGA and
JUNO.



(Sea Hunt, Inc. v. Unidentified Shipwrecked Vessel or Vessels, 221 F.3d 634 (2000) p.7)

The semantic shift, as we know, is important.  From a historical perspective, it might do good service to the discussion at hand to trace what appears to be a shift in the court�s characterization of Sea Hunt�s view(s) of the identity of the Two Unidentified Shipwrecked Vessel(s) that were the focus of the case.  Did the Appellate Court overstate Sea Hunt�s position in this respect?

I have found Satdiver to be very knowledgeable with respect to the mechanics of arrest pleadings under admiralty and, if I may politely say so, I do not believe that his characterization of the case, particularly the Appellate Court�s decision, is inaccurate.  If I may present the issue this way: the ultimate question, among several, before the court in Sea Hunt at both the District and Appellate levels was not whether the vessels found by Sea Hunt were the Juno and La Galga.  The question was: which party or parties, i.e., the Kingdom of Spain, the Commonwealth of Virginia, and/or Sea Hunt, could legally assert a claim for ownership, title, or an award (in the case of Sea Hunt) over the vessels commissioned by His Most Catholic Majesty of Spain and referred to as Juno and La Galga. These are two fundamentally different questions: one seeks to be answered by science, the other by the practice and operation of the law.

Moving on with some other casual observations:

1. Sea Hunt recognized the State of Virginia�s jurisdiction by submitting to proper permitting through the authority vested in the Virginia Marine Resources Commission prior to working its state-assigned permit areas. Particularly during the District Court hearing of the case, Sea Hunt appears to have coordinated very closely with the Commonwealth of Virginia in its pleadings. By way of aside, Sea Hunt very much understood and preferred the State of Virginia�s claim under the Abandoned Shipwreck Act.

2. The State of Virginia asserted an interest in the shipwrecks found by Sea Hunt pursuant to the Abandoned Shipwreck Act (ASA), as quoted above. The identity of the wreck need not be known in order to satisfy transfer of title and ownership to the State under the provisions of the ASA.  Strictly speaking, from the point of view of the State of Virginia�s claim under the ASA, the issue of the identity of the vessel(s) is incidental to questions of the wreck�s situation, location, status, and whether the vessel(s) could legally be found to be abandoned.

3. For Sovereign interests akin to the United States and the Kingdom of Spain, the issue of a shipwreck(s) identity are paramount questions in determining whether or not Sovereign Immunity is operative as a superior ground on which to assert a claim against a wreck.

4. It is important to note that early in the case Sea Hunt put forth the claim in its motions that the vessels were believed to be La Galga and Juno.  The scientific community, in a peer review sense (and this underscores the process of peer review) had not at this point in the case weighed the issue of these assemblages� respective identities in any definitive sense to which I am aware (I would greatly welcome any further information on this aspect of the case, by the way).  Thus, given the legal facts presented at that time before the court, the Sovereign interests in this case, the Kingdom of Spain, the United States, and the Commonwealth of Virginia are bound to take the statements made by Sea Hunt within pleadings as reasonable assertions of fact until proven otherwise by preponderance of the evidence.


Turning directly to the legal questions commencing with number one:

Quote
1. Can an admiralty court acquire legal jurisdiction over a Spanish wreck if that wreck has not in fact been found? The perfection of a claim in rem occurs when an artifact from a specific vessel is arrested and brought into court. Can the court make a valid award without valid jurisdiction?


There are really two distinct parts to this question: jurisdiction and adjudication.  Answering these questions in some detail might also address some of the others posed. We will have to quickly look at each part of question one.  With respect to jurisdiction, we are able to look to the case law on this subject for some clear guidance.  Salvors, particularly salvor�s seeking historical shipwrecks, have frequently advanced arguments grounded on the Eleventh Amendment.  These arguments generally seek to question the Federal and District courts� jurisdiction in cases such as the one under discussion.  In a recent case, a District Court in Alabama observed:

The law is clear that � the Eleventh Amendment does not bar the jurisdiction of a federal court over an in rem admiralty action where the res is not within the State�s possession.� Sea Services of the Keys, Inc. v. State of Florida, 156 F.3d 1151, 1153 (11th Cir. 1998) [here the court quotes from the well-known case: California v. Deep Sea Research, Inc., 523 U.S. 491. 118, S.Ct. 1464, 140 L.Ed.2d 626 (1998). [as cited by the court in: Fathom Exploration, LLC, v. The Unidentified Shipwrecked Vessel or Vessels, etc, in rem (Civil Action 04-0685-WS-L]).

Furthermore, in cases where a State court is involved, the Eleventh Amendment does not preclude such a court from exercising jurisdiction over a vessel not in the State�s actual possession.  In such cases where clear statutory laws exist that potentially transfer title and ownership of a vessel to a sovereign interest, the state or federal government may assert a legal claim under such laws. (Again, this issue was treated by the court in: California v. Deep Sea Research, 523 U.S. at lines 507-08). 


With respect to the second part of the question, adjudication, the situation is less clear and remains to be settled.  Here much of your constructive criticism finds its mark. The courts seem less sure of their ground and have stated tentatively that while claim to a vessel may be transferred to a sovereign interest, this claim may not necessarily be adjudicated until the question of positive identity is established.  Presumably through proper archaeological science.  That is to say, the courts appear to have ruled that sovereign interests may assert a claim against any vessel that may fit certain established criteria; however, adjudication of the claim is very likely conditional upon the vessel meeting legal standards set forth under the law with respect to identity (non-commercial service under the flag of a sovereign nation, location and situation of the wreck within sovereign jurisdiction, etc. (again see: Fathom Exploration, LLC, v. The Unidentified Shipwrecked Vessel or Vessels, etc, in rem (Civil Action 04-0685-WS-L).
 
I must say I am very interested in the archaeological debate concerning the evidence related to the would-be Juno and La Galga assemblages.  I hope to see this discussion developed more completely. 

Baja, your input is always very welcome; I have always appreciated your patience with my questions when I drift into your areas of expertise.

I am sorry for any delay in addressing these very interesting questions; however, they are complex and many are unresolved. I must also occasionally haul my organ out to the corner and grind for a living.

Very Best Regards,

Lubby
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satdiver
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« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2008, 08:42:04 PM »

Thank you for the kind support Lubby, always appreciated.

As the Juno/LaGalga fiasco will rear it head again, here is my opinion on the issues:

Courts make findings. The petitioner submitted the identification to the courts. It is not up to the court to question the identification, ie say I dont think its the Juno. A court cannot make an independent guess, only find on the the evidence submitted.

There was no argument that the vessel identifications were incorrect, had another party argued a different identification, the court would make a finding as to the information presented.

The case of the Juno/LaGalga, is often cited, as was the case in the quote, on the issue of abandonment. The term abandonment, what it means, how it applies, was found in this case.

It does NOT matter if, where or when the Juno or LaGalga is found. If the wreck is found in the middle of Ohio, or in the middle of the ocean, the determination on sovereignty and of abandonment remains the same, unless that portion is overturned.

Also, the simple matter of the arrest "site". The coordinates and site are still under a valid arrest if the identification is not the Juno or La Galga, add that to the mix.

Now, you can potentially see where this is going with regards to the Black Swan. The inherent danger of not identifying a wreck site, is that someone else can potentially come along, and present a better case for the identity. If the preponderance of evidence is deemed valid to the court, the court can, and will, make a finding.

In addition, another very important aspect of where you file an arrest, has to do with the enforcement of the arrest. While the District Court of Florida can be a proper format for the arrest, how would the DCF court enforce a violation of the arrest, by lets say, another salvor, off the coast of Portugal or England?
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« Reply #22 on: Today at 01:03:41 AM »

Lubby:
Nice distinctions in terms of what issues are really, shall we say, at issue in the Sea Hunt court saga. I find the legal jockeying wearying...and yet...it is incredibly important not so much in terms of the business resolution (short term) but in terms of the precedents for finding ways to reward business and yet record archeology (and history, culture, etc.)-- those other treasures that can now be found at sea. I'm delighted that your postings along with the other commentators appear to be having an effect on the case itself. Might as well make history as well as record it, right?

Kentucky
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