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Author Topic: Tartessos  (Read 422 times)
Description: Atlantis?
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Solomon
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« on: October 24, 2006, 10:39:21 PM »

 

Tartessos
Tartessos (also Tartessus) was a harbor city on the south coast of the Iberian peninsula (in modern Andalusia, Spain), at the mouth of the Guadalquivir river. Tartessos dates at least from 1000 BC, about the time when the Phoenicians made contact with the existing city. The Tartessians were traders, who may have discovered the route to the Tin Islands (Britain, or more specifically Cornwall) or the tin may have been found in alluvial ores carried down by their own river: the pseudonymous geographical versifier, Pseudo-Scymnus (ca 90 BCE), was surely imitating some older source when he wrote, "the renowned Tartessos, famous town, receives tin carried by the river from Celtica, as well as gold and bronze in great quantity" (Peregesis, 164, noted by Gamito). Trade in tin was very lucrative from the Bronze Age onwards, since it was necessary for the production of bronze. The people from Tartessos became important trading partners of the Phoenicians, who nearby built a harbor of their own, Gades (current-day C?diz). Ancient Greek texts refer to a legendary king of Tartessos, Arganthonios, known for his wealth in silver and minerals. Greek texts say Arganthonios lived many years beyond the normal human lifespan, but Arganthonios may have been the name of several Tartessian kings or their title, giving rise to legends of a single man's longevity. Artifacts linked with the Tartessos culture have been found, but the site of the city is lost.


Lost civilization
In the 6th century BC, Tartessos disappeared rather suddenly from history. The Romans called the wide bay the Tartessius Sinus though the city was no more. One theory is that the city had been destroyed by the Carthaginians who wanted to take over the Tartessans' trading routes. Another is that it had been refounded, under obscure conditions, as Carpia. When the traveller Pausanias visited Greece in the 2nd century AD (Paus. Desc. 6.XIX.3) he saw two bronze chambers in one of the sanctuaries at Olympia, which the people of Elis claimed was Tartessian bronze:

    "They say that Tartessus is a river in the land of the Iberians, running down into the sea by two mouths, and that between these two mouths lies a city of the same name. The river, which is the largest in Iberia, and tidal, those of a later day called Baetis, and there are some who think that Tartessus was the ancient name of Carpia, a city of the Iberians."

Flavius Philostratus, The Life of Apollonius of Tyana (book v.1) observes of this southernmost part of Hispania: "the promontory of Europe, known as Calpis, stretches along the inlet of the Ocean and right hand side a distance of six hundred stadia, and terminates in the ancient city of Gadeira."

The name "Carpia" possibly survives as El Carpio, a site in a bend of the Guadalquivir, but the origin of its name has been associated with its imposing oldest feature, a Moorish tower erected in 1325 by the engineer responsible for the alc?zar of Seville.


The site of Tartessos has been lost?buried under the shifting wetlands that have replaced former estuaries behind dunes at the modern single mouth of the Guadalquivir, where the river delta has gradually been blocked off by a huge sandbar that stretches from the mouth of the Rio Tinto, near Palos de la Frontera, to the riverbank opposite Sanl?car de Barrameda. The area is now protected as the Parque Nacional de Do?ana.


Mythical and religious connections
Some believe Tartessos was the source of the legend of Atlantis. The similarities between the two legendary societies certainly make this connection seem possible. Both Atlantis and Tartessos are believed to have been advanced societies who collapsed when their cities were lost beneath the waves. The enigmatic Lady of Elx, a high artistic quality, ancient bust of a woman found in southeastern Spain, has been tied with both Atlantis and Tartessos since the statue displays the dress of unrecognized culture, that presumably developed great artistic skill to have produced such a work.

Some Tartessian enthusiasts imagine it as a contemporary of Atlantis, with which could have traded.

In the Bible, the word Tarshish may refer to Tartessos, though Tarsus in Turkey has also been suggested as an identification. Tarshish, like Tartessos, is associated with extensive mineral wealth.

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« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2006, 12:22:31 AM »



Not far from the HMS Sussex site, eh?


This interesting:

Tarshish

The Phoenician Exodus Westward

             The Assyrian economy expanded greatly in the late eighth
century (i.e. 700s) BCE after defeating Urartu which had controlled the
trade routes to the northwest and to Syria. Phoenicia was conquered in the
740s. The Phoenicians were to be at least partly re-settled and forced to
use their experience and know-how to supply Assyria with the greater part
of its raw materials and finished manufactures.

             The Prophet Isaiah had predicted the destruction of Phoenician
Tyre and an exodus to Tarshish:

<<THE BURDEN OF TYRE. HOWL YE SHIPS OF TARSHISH; FOR IT IS LAID WASTE (23:1)

<<BE STILL YE INHABITANTS OF THE ISLE; THOU WHOM THE MERCHANTS OF SIDON
THAT PASS OVER THE SEA HAVE REPLENISHED (23:2)

<<PASS YE OVER TO TARSHISH; HOWL YE INHABITANTS OF THE ISLE (23:6)

<<PASS THROUGH THY LAND LIKE A RIVER, O DAUGHTER OF TARSHISH (23:10)

<<DAUGHTER OF SIDON; ARISE, PASS OVER TO CHITTIM; THERE ALSO SHALT THOU
HAVE NO REST (23:12). >>

             The ships of Tyre are ships of Tarshish. Isaiah predicted
that Tyre would be destroyed and an attempted re-establishment made in
Chittim. This would be unsuccessful and from Chittim a move to Tarshish
itself (in Spain) would be made. The mass of new immigrant refugees from
Tyre and Sidon entering Tarshish were to be as a river overflowing its
banks. Tyre and Sidon were the two major Phoenician cities.     Josephus
(Ant.10; 227) quotes Megasthenes (ca.300 BCE) as saying that the Babylonian
king, Nebuchadnessar (who inherited much of the former Assyrian Empire),
ruled over North Africa and Spain.          Esarhaddon (681-669) boasted of
controlling Yadnana (i.e. Isle of the Dananu, meaning Cyprus), Yaman
(Yavan meaning Greece), and Tarsis (meaning Tarsis of the Atlantic) in
Spain. Assyrian references mention Tarsis as the westernmost extremity of
Phoenician colonization. Avienus and various sources record that the
Phoenicians had colonies in Britain.

             Spain before ca. 700 BCE had a relatively low population
density with small undefended poorly developed scattered villages
possessing a low technological capacity. Development came with the
Phoenicians. Iron was completely unknown in the Iberian Peninsula until
introduced by the Phoenicians in 750-700 BCE. Metal farming implements did
not appear until iron became widely available after 600 BCE.

             The province of Baetica in southern Spain experienced a large
scale settlement of people bearing a Phoenician type culture in the period
immediately following upon the Assyrian conquest of Phoenicia and claimed
domination of Tarshish in Spain.

             Archaeology has confirmed the existence in Spain of a material
culture of Syro-Palestinianorigin (i.e. from the area of ancient Israel
and its neighbors) originating in the decades 750-720 and continuing for
two hundred years. In other words the new settlers brought a culture from
the former Israelite area developed by them shortly before the exile of the
northern Tribes of Israel which culminated around 720 BCE. The area of
settlement was along the southern Spanish coast from Abdera (in the
southeast) to Gades which faced the Atlantic Ocean on the west.

             The new settlements in Spain were based on the exploitation of
mineral resources from the nearby Andalusian mountains regarding which
Strabo (3;2;7 8) stated:

             "Neither gold, nor silver, nor yet copper, nor iron, has been
found anywhere in the world, in a natural state, either in such quantity or
of such a good quality."

             The settlement of Toscanos (on the southeast coast of Spain)
was the only really fortified settlement in the area. The construction was
built of dressed stone (ashlar) in a particular style whose closest
parallels are to be found in the Israelite buildings at Samaria and at
Ramat Rachel (near Jerusalem) of Judea. The place was abandoned by about
550 BCE which date was that of Carthaginian and North African incursions.

             The Phoenician(or Israelite) settlements in Spain served as
transit points to the east for tin arriving from Portugal, Galicia (Galatia
in northwest Spain) and Britain.

             According to Strabo (1;3;2 & 3;5;5) and Pliny most of Spain
had formerly been settled by the Phoenicians. The Assyrians broke the
Phoenician monopoly on tin through conquering the Phoenicians and gaining
control over their sources. The Assyrian Empire was then flooded with tin
at reduced prices. Western Europe especially Britain and Spain possessed
minerals (tin, silver, gold) for which there was an inexhaustible demand in
the east. In the eastern Mediterranean Greek merchant colonies were
established and encouraged to replace the Phoenicians. The Phoenician and
Israelite mercantile operations were transferred westward (Moshe Elat).
Most of the Syro-Palestinianfinds in Spain belong to types prevailing on
the Phoenician coast, in Syria, and the North Israel area. There were also
forms of decorated pottery specifically associated with Iron Age northern
Syria, ancient Hattina, and Quemeaning the once Israelite Northern Syrian
areas of Yadi, of the Dananu, and other parts of northern Syria-Israel.

             Assyrian inscriptions announced their control of Tarsis
(Tarshish) in the far west of their domains. Tarsis was on the southwest
coast) of Spain, near Gades (Cadiz) to the northwest of Gibraltar. In
Classical (Greek and Roman) records Tarsis (Tarshish) is referred to as
Tartessos. Tartessos served as an emporium for goods from Gaul and Britain.

             In the Book of Psalms, it says The kings of Tarshish and of
the isles shall bring presents(Psalm 72;10): The Aramaic Targum translates
this expression to say, The Kings of Tarsis and of the Isles in the
Oceanic Sea shall bring offeringsand by Oceanic Sea (i.e. Yam Okyanus)
the Atlantic Ocean is intended (Ha-aruch HaShalem, entry: Okyanus).

              Prior to the Assyrian exile, the Israelite Hebrews had had
seafaring experience, had co-operated with the Phoenicians, and had become
familiar with Tarshish. King Solomon had been partner to Hiram king of
Phoenician Tyre in an enterprise that circumnavigated Africa and re-entered
the Mediterranean after visiting Tarshish somewhere on the European
Atlantic shores.  This enterprise took three years (1- Kings 9:26-27).

              Herodotus (4.42,43) reported that Pharoah Neco who reigned
just after Solomon also sent Phoenician sailors to circumnavigate Africa
and return via the Pillars of Hercules i.e. the Straits of Gibraltar. He
likewise mentions the fact that this trip took three years to complete
since he explains the sailors would make a camp on dry land. They would
then sow and wait to reap a harvest before continuing.

             The prophet Ezekiel listed Tarshish amongst the numerous
places that were wont to trade with Tyre of Phoenicia: <<TARSHISH WAS THY
MERCHANT BY REASON OF THE MULTITUDE OF ALL KINDS OF RICHES; WITH SILVER,
IRON, TIN, AND LEAD, THEY TRADED IN THY FAIRS>> (Ezekiel 27;12).

              At the period mentioned it was the Bronze Age and bronze was
the chief metal in use. Even in the Iron Age, that came later, bronze was
still the most important metal in most regions. Tin and copper are
essential in the production of Bronze and part of the tin used at the time
originated in Britain. Pliny said that all of their tin came from Britain.
The Egyptian (Coptic) word for tin is pithransaid to be derived from a
mispronunciation of Britain.

             Tarshishmay have originally been a Greek settlement whose
facilities Israelites and Phoenicians utilized. Around 700 BCE Tartessos
(i.e. Tarshish) was ruled by Phoenicians. Tartessus became identified with
Gades which was also a city of Phoenician origin. Gades was aided by
Carthage. Tartessos established its suzerainty over Phoenician Tyrian
colonies in the south and southeast of Spain. At one stage Tartessos ruled
over all of Spain and most of Gaul. Samuel Bochart (1681), affirmed that
the province of Dertossa in north-east Spanish was actually named after
Tarshish, the name being another form for Tartessa, i.e. (Little-?)
Tartessus.

  The Israelite Connection with Tarshish

             Tartessus was conquered by Assyria. The Assyrians had
conquered Tyre and Sidon and the rest of Phoenicia as well as the northern
Kingdom of Israel. They exiled many of the Phoenicians and all of the
Israelites. The Israelites were deported to several areas mostly in the
north. In addition, a portion of the Israelite deportees were transported
together with, or alongside of, Phoenicians to southern Spain. [References
to an exile by sea in great shipsand in fishing boats  are found in the
Hebrew Bible, in the Books of Isaiah and Amos]. They were forced to further
develop their metallurgical operations and trading connections in the area
in order to supply the Assyrians with raw materials, especially metals,
from Spain and Britain. Biblical references show that the Phoenicians and
Philistines acted on behalf of the Assyrians and were instrumental in
transferring Israelite exiles overseas. Initially the Phoenicians were
concentrated in the south and south east of Spain. In this area, place
names and other factors reveal an initial Israelite presence alongside that
of the Phoenicians.

             The word Hebrew(originally used almost exclusively for
Israelites) comes from the root "Aber" or "Iber". The appellation
"IBERI" was at first that of the Israelite settlers. The name was later
given to natives of North Africa who entered Spain as a result of
Carthaginian policy. The term "Iberi"  was consequently incorrectly
applied to the North African newcomers. The Greeks were apparently
responsible for applying the term "Iberian"to the wrong people. They
transposed an already existing ethnic definition of another people known to
them by that name in the Spanish area. The original Iberi(or Hiberi) had
from Spain passed into Gaul and the British Isles and the root "Eber" (or
"Iber" or "Heber") is frequently found in the Celticnomenclature of
those areas. The overwhelming majority of places bearing the name "Iber"
and its cognates are Celtic and everywhere the name is found can be linked
to Celtic presence. The inhabitants of Britain and Ireland called
themselves "Iberi" meaning Hebrews. Iberiis also rendered as Hiberi,
Ibernian, or Hibernian.

             Justin (44;3) said that,

             "The Gallaecians..... took possession  of those parts where
New Carthage now stands and passing from thence to Gallaecia.."

             New Carthage was on the southeast coast of Spain. -Gallaecia
was on the northwest. Justin is recording a tradition of migration from the
southeast of Spain to Gallaecia in the northwest. Gallaeciawas named
after the Galatae who settled in Gaul and the British Isles and according
to Irish and Scottish mythology arrived via Spain.

             Ammianus Marcellinus (15;19) said that the original
inhabitants of Tartessos had been called DORIANS. The Dorians in Classical
literature were a branch of the Greeks but in this case the intention is to
people coming via the port of Dor on the coast of Israel. Dor was the major
port on the coast of Central Israel and in Assyrian times it was the name
given to a province comprising the whole coastal area. Bochart using Greek
and Latin sources demonstrated that the Dorians who migrated to Gades and
Tartessus were descendants of a legendary "Dorus" and "Phoenicius" i.e.
of Dorians and Phoenicians. Bochart traced them to Dor in Israel and says
that originally they were identified as Galicians, i.e. Galatians. Dor and
her towns had been part of the region inherited by the Tribe of Manasseh
whose original Canaanite inhabitants at first could not be driven out but
were put to tribute (Joshua 17:11-12, Judges 1:27-28). Later the area was
considered Israelite. All the region of Dor became one of the 12
administrative districts into which the Land of Israel was divided by King
Solomon . When the Assyrians conquered Israel they named the whole coastal
region of Manasseh and Ephraim after Dor. Ptolemy records the Menesthei
Portus, i.e. the Port of the Tribe of Manasseh, in the region of the
Turdulorum just to the east of Gades off the southwest coast of
Spain!        Metal produced in Baetica (in southeast Spain) was called
Samarian metal (Pliny N.H.) after Samaria in Israel. There was also a
port named Samariumin Galatia of northwest Spain. The Samar (Somme) River
in north Gaul and neighboring city of Samarobriva (Amiens) and the Sambre
River just to their north in Belgium were also named after Samaria in Israel.
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« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2006, 12:40:06 PM »


More treasures of Tartessos





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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2007, 09:01:45 PM »

   One description of history views it as facts that turned to legend, and legend to myth. We live in times where we have seen this process reversed on numerous occasions. While we won't know what we have here until further investigation, it seems that another legend is in the process of leaning with the imminent threat of falling completely. It is exciting to see this happening, we live  in wonderful times.  CoolAnd I hope it continues in this vein, and that we learn some good lessons from it. It seems to some degree that recording history, the why's and wherefore's of what was happening, was not given priority, for whatever reason.

   No doubt many of the past great civilizations thought they would endure forever. Some disappeared rapidly, some slowly, but disappear they did. Only from those who left good records have we been able to understand some of what they were all about. That might be a lesson to which we today need to more heed.

- Bart

Spaniards Search For Legendary Tartessos in a Marsh

By Sinikka Tarvainen - 11 May 2007

Madrid - Where was the capital of Tartessos, the legendary pre-Roman civilization which once existed on the Iberian Peninsula?

   The culture which flourished from around 800 to 500 BC is believed to have been located mainly around the present-day cities of Cadiz, Seville and Huelva in southern Spain, but no traces of a major urban settlement have been found.

   Now, however, scientists have discovered surprising clues to where a major Tartessian city may have been, the daily El Pais reported.

   Its ruins could lie in the subsoil of a marsh area known as the Marisma de Hinojos in the Donana National Park near Seville, according to the daily.

   Chief researcher Sebastian Celestino declined to comment on the report. His team will give details once the investigation is finished, a representative of the Superior Council of Scientific Investigations (CSIC) told the Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa.

   For years, satellite and aerial images of the Marisma de Hinojos have revealed strange circular structures of different sizes - up to 200 metres in diameter - and rectangular forms.

   The area is under water in wintertime, and until now, scientists had thought it had always been inundated.

   That had made most of them skeptical of the possibility that the forms visible from the air could be remains of a human settlement buried in the subsoil.

   Yet new evidence has now emerged, with electro-magnetic tests indicating that the area may have experienced long dry periods, according to El Pais.

   In the bottom of the marsh, there are layers that appear to contain concentrated sand, the daily quoted researcher Antonio Rodriguez as saying.

   If the area had always been submerged, the subsoil would only contain mud instead of sand.

   Scientists think they stand a fair chance of finding archaeological remains in the marsh, though the link with Tartessos remains a mere hypothesis for the time being.

   Knowledge about Tartessos had so far been based mainly on Greek and Latin literary sources, which described it as a civilization on the edge of the known world.

   Often identified with Tarshish mentioned in the Bible, the kingdom traded profitably with the Phoenicians and Carthaginians, and may even have discovered a route to Britain.

   Some researchers equate Tartessos with Atlantis, the utopia described by the Greek philosopher Plato, which is said to have sunk into the sea.

   Tartessos disappeared mysteriously around 500 BC. Some believe it was destroyed by the Carthaginians, but the new geological evidence from the Marisma de Hinojos makes it look possible that two tsunamis wiped out the settlement located there, according to El Pais.

   Some remains identified with Tartessos have been found, including a palace-sanctuary near Badajoz and a necropolis in Huelva, but no major urban settlement.

   As the next step, scientists intend to make a hole 7 metres deep into the marshland to see what - if anything - lies underneath.

   If the remains of a Tartessian city were found, that might bring invaluable information to historians divided over whether Tartessos had an identity of its own, or whether it was just an extension of the Phoenician civilization.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/europe/features/article_1303143.php/Spaniards_search_for_legendary_Tartessos_in_a_marsh
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2007, 12:51:23 AM »

Bart:

The moving relationships between fact, legend and myth is, to my mind, a minefield.

I see what you mean. The OT and the Flood, for example: first, it is fact, then dismissed as myth. Then an argument is made that it is legend.

On the other hand, there is Troy. The ancient Romans regarded it as their genealogical history. Then it was dismissed as legend. Then Schliemann claims it as fact and archaeology is born. However, I do not regard his site as indisputably that of Troy.

There are many obstacles in trying to understand what is what. One, for example, is understanding what the original author was trying to say. Another problem is to peel away the layers superimposed by those who have used the legend for their own purposes.

You pose this situation:
recording history, the why's and wherefore's of what was happening, was not given priority

You are right. Most history is composed from data - archaeological in origin in many cases - across many sources and when we are fortunate to have a declared history from some ancient source, we cannot just accept it at face value.

I doubt much content of the early medieval chronicles recounting Viking incursions. The chroniclers are nearly always writing about pagans from a Christian perspective. Quite possibly there is a heavy political motive in misrepresenting the facts. Archaeology has shown very little to support the Christian chroniclers' accounts of Viking raids.

In the case of ancient religious texts, their authors were generally concerned with religion, not history.

When we do not know clearlly the motive of the author, it becomes a matter of interpretation.

In the case of Atlantis, there is one and only one source and that source is Plato.

Atlantis
As a story embedded in Plato's dialogues, Atlantis is generally seen as a myth created by Plato to illustrate his political theories. Although the function of the story of Atlantis seems clear to most scholars, they dispute whether and how much Plato's account was inspired by older traditions. Some scholars argue Plato drew upon memories of past events such as the Thera eruption or the Trojan War, while others insist that he took inspiration of contemporary events like the destruction of Helike in 373 BCE or the failed Athenian invasion of Sicily in 415?413 BCE.

The possible existence of a genuine Atlantis was actively discussed throughout the classical antiquity, but it was usually rejected and occasionally parodied.


Plato's account of Atlantis is found in the dialogues Timaeus and Critias. These works, written in the year 360 BC, contain the earliest known references to Atlantis. The dialogue Critias was never completed by Plato for an unknown reason...

Other than Plato's Timaeus and Critias there is no primary ancient account of Atlantis, which means every other account on Atlantis relies on Plato in one way or another. To this day, no proof for a non-Platonic tradition of Atlantis has been found.

It is therefore not possible to consider the possible historicity of Atlantis without first understanding Plato and what he was trying to convey to his readership in those ancient times.

The easy route is to ignore that question and just accept it all as fact, then look around for some site which has some evidence one could possibly associate with Plato's description. This has been the approach adopted by many and it has sold many copies of many books. It is game we could all play and is meaningless.

I reject utterly this casual approach to history.

Plato was not, to my mind, a historian. Even when he appears to be presenting history in one form or another, he may - and almost always did - have other purposes.

Plato and Narration of the dialogues
Plato never presents himself as a participant in any of the dialogues, and with the exception of the Apology, he does not claim to have heard any of the dialogues firsthand. Some dialogues have no narrator (examples: Meno, Gorgias, Phaedrus, Crito, Euthyphro), some dialogues are narrated by Socrates, wherein he speaks in first person (examples: Lysis, Charmides, Apology, Republic). In one dialogue, Protagoras, Socrates narrates to an unnamed friend a conversation he had previously with the sophist for whom the dialogue is named.

Plato and Socrates
Plato made himself seem as though he were part of the Socratic entourage but never says so explicitly.

Some of the dialogues, letters, and other works that are ascribed to him are considered spurious.*
*Some were already excluded from Thrasyllus' tetralogies (see below); for a typical modern view of which other works in the Platonic corpus are spurious or dubious, see e.g. the classification of works as authentic, dubious, or spurious in the table of contents to John M. Cooper (ed.), Plato: Complete Works, Hackett, 1997.


"Plato wrote of an island of five stades (925m) diameter that was surrounded by several circular structures - concentric rings - some consisting of Earth and the others of water. We have in the photos concentric rings just as Plato described," Dr Kuehne said. Image source: Werner Wickboldt

The archaeology:

Marisma de Hinojos
The Marisma de Hinojos is a salt marsh about 50 km north of the city of Cadiz, in the autonomous region of Andalusia, Spain. "Marisma de Hinojos" means "salt marsh of fennel plants". It lies within Do?ana National Park (Parque Nacional de Do?ana) on the Costa de la Luz.



A location for "Atlantis"?
Rainer W. K?hne
Antiquity Vol 78 No 300 June 2004
Plato's war between Atlantis and the Eastern Mediterranean countries finds echoes with the activities of the Sea Peoples around 1200 BC, and may be based on Egyptian reports and Greek traditions preserved in the Athens of his time. While a location on the sunken post-glacial island of Spartel is unlikely, there is a possibility that the city and society of Atlantis may refer to either Iron Age Tartessos or a Bronze Age culture in the same area of south-west Spain.

May and may not. Personally, I have a lingering doubt with any historian who uses a religious system for chronology. It indicates to me somebody whose thinking is more faith-based than scientific. He offers no reason as to why we should accept Plato's writing as being intended to be an historical account, and without that, he cannot start the project to which his sets himself.

Faith and locating Atlantis seem to go hand in hand. Next project: Noah's Ark?

Solomon
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2007, 06:30:19 AM »

"We knew from ancient reports that the Lupercale shouldn't be far from the Emperor's palace, but we didn't expect to find it."

" According to myth, Lupercale is where a she-wolf suckled Romulus and Remus..."
Lupercale

   As I understood this report, the cave's existence was also part of the myth, but perhaps that is not strictly so. The fact that there is a cave there, and what has been reported so far regarding what was seen inside, seems to me to bring a portion, and only a portion, of the myth at least one step closer to fact. As you say, these things are a minefield, and anyone can easily get tripped up in them. I am hoping this speculation regarding Tartessos is is in the same vein.

- Bart
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2007, 09:25:08 PM »


In 360 BCE Plato described an island he called Atlantis. Swedish geographer Ulf Erlingsson believes the Greek philosopher based his geographic description on Ireland (shown above in a satellite image)
Image courtesy Jacques Descloitres, MODIS Rapid Response Team at NASA GSFC

Atlantis 'evidence' found in Ireland and Spain

An empire filled with riches, it was an awe-inspiring civilization west of the Strait of Gibraltar's Pillars of Hercules cliffs�until it was defeated by ancient Athens and consumed by a cataclysmic natural disaster.

"In a single day and night � the island � disappeared into the depths of the sea."

    * New Underwater Finds Raise Questions About Flood Myths

So wrote the Greek philosopher Plato in 360 B.C. about the island he called Atlantis. The story is one of the more mysterious and enduring tales in history.

Whether or not Atlantis actually existed has been a great topic of debate for thousands of years. Plato�whose celebrated "dialogues" Timaeus and Critias are the only historical sources of information about Atlantis�often mixed facts and fable.

Now new evidence claims that Atlantis was based on a real place�or places.

According to Rainer K�hne, a German physicist, satellite photos of southern Spain suggest that the "island" of Atlantis was in fact a region of the southern Spanish coast that was destroyed by a flood between 800 B.C. and 500 B.C.

"These satellite photos show rectangular structures and concentric circles that match very well with Plato's description of the palaces and the city of Atlantis," said K�hne, whose research was reported in the journal Antiquity.

But Ulf Erlingsson, a Swedish geographer, believes Plato combined elements from different times and places in the background description for his utopia. The distribution of the Atlantean empire seems to match that of the megaliths (large rough stone monuments) in Western Europe and North Africa. The geographic description of the island Atlantis, he suggests, is based on an island that is still standing today�Ireland.

"Just like Atlantis, Ireland is 300 miles [480 kilometers] long, 200 miles [320 kilometers] wide, and features a central plain that is open to the sea," said Erlingsson, the author of Atlantis From a Geographer's Perspective: Mapping the Fairy Land.

"I have looked at geographical data of the whole world. Of the 50 largest islands, Ireland is the only one that matches Plato's description of the landscape," he added.

Wrath of the Gods

Plato, who derived his story from the Egyptians, described Atlantis as having a main city with a royal palace made of ivory, gold, and silver. The city featured bridges, canals, ships, temples, and even a horse-racing track.

Once a domain of the sea god Poseidon, Atlantis may have been named after Atlas the Titan, said to have been Poseidon's son. According to Plato, the city's kings conquered parts of both Europe and Africa before being defeated by Athens.

The gods, angered by Atlantis's greed and corruption, unleashed a barrage of floods and earthquakes on the fabled kingdom, sinking it into the sea in a single day. (Athens was destroyed by natural disaster at the same time.)

    * New Underwater Finds Raise Questions About Flood Myths

The bulk of Plato's account is clearly fictional. The war between Athens and Atlantis takes place more than 11,000 years ago, at a time when the civilization he describes could not possibly have existed�nor could his victorious Athens.

But Plato's use of vivid details has led scholars to speculate that his fabled island was based on a real place. Some believe Atlantis is Spartel Island, a mud shoal in the Strait of Gibraltar that sank into the sea 11,500 years ago.

But K�hne says Spartel Island is too small�Plato wrote that Atlantis was bigger than Libya and Asia put together�and could not have possessed the high culture described by Plato.

Instead, K�hne points to satellite photos of a salt marsh region called Marisma de Hinojos, near the city of C�diz in Spain, as the possible location of Atlantis. The photos, K�hne says, show two rectangular structures in the mud and part of concentric rings that may once have surrounded them.

"These rectangular structures could be the remains of the temples described by Plato," K�hne said in a telephone interview from his home in Braunschweig, Germany.

While transmitting the Atlantis story, the Greeks may have confused the Egyptian word for "coastline" with one meaning "island," K�hne speculates. The "plain" described by Plato could be a plain that extends today from the Spanish southern coast to the city of Seville, he said.

"I cannot say with certainty that Atlantis was located [in southern Spain]," K�hne said. "But these photos suggest that we should take a closer look at this location."

The Fairy Land

Erlingsson, meanwhile, says Atlantis is a literary construction by Plato. "Its existence has not been proven," he said in a telephone interview from Ireland, where he was doing research. "We know it was a utopia."

But Erlingsson is convinced that Plato based the geographical description of his fabled kingdom on a real place and argues that even the empire might be historic. He claims he has calculated with "99.98 percent probability" that the island Atlantis was modeled on Ireland.

"It is the only island in the world that matches the criteria of the island described by Plato," Erlingsson said.

The island that sank was not Ireland, he suggested, but nearby Dogger Bank, which was struck by a flood wave in 6,100 B.C.

The geographer says Ireland's megalithic monuments, dating back to 3,000 B.C., can be associated with the palaces and temples described by Plato. The megalithic culture of Western Europe and Northern Africa was more advanced than other Stone Age cultures, and Ireland is one of its core regions, he noted.

"The hill in which the Atlanteans' maternal ancestor, Cleito, was born resembles Tara, the legendary seat of the high king of Ireland, while Newgrange resembles the palace of their paternal ancestor, Poseidon," he said.

Erlingsson says he started his studies believing that Atlantis never existed. But he is now convinced that Plato knew of Ireland.

"He obviously blended fantasy and fact. But the question is not whether he made something up. It's if he made everything up�or if he based it on some real data," Erlingsson said.

"With very high probability the answer is that he based it on actual geographic information," the geographer said. "Ireland comes out as the only logical location for the central island of the Atlantean empire in Plato's tale."
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2007, 09:30:56 PM »


Jarra tart�sica con cabeza de felino

Spaniards search for legendary Tartessos in a marsh:
Where was the capital of Tartessos, the legendary pre-Roman civilization which once existed on the Iberian Peninsula?

The culture which flourished from around 800 to 500 BC is believed to have been located mainly around the present-day cities of Cadiz, Seville and Huelva in southern Spain, but no traces of a major urban settlement have been found.

Now, however, scientists have discovered surprising clues to where a major Tartessian city may have been, the daily El Pais reported.

Its ruins could lie in the subsoil of a marsh area known as the Marisma de Hinojos in the Donana National Park near Seville, according to the daily.

Chief researcher Sebastian Celestino declined to comment on the report. His team will give details once the investigation is finished, a representative of the Superior Council of Scientific Investigations (CSIC) told the Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa.

For years, satellite and aerial images of the Marisma de Hinojos have revealed strange circular structures of different sizes - up to 200 metres in diameter - and rectangular forms.

The area is under water in wintertime, and until now, scientists had thought it had always been inundated.

That had made most of them skeptical of the possibility that the forms visible from the air could be remains of a human settlement buried in the subsoil.

Yet new evidence has now emerged, with electro-magnetic tests indicating that the area may have experienced long dry periods, according to El Pais.

In the bottom of the marsh, there are layers that appear to contain concentrated sand, the daily quoted researcher Antonio Rodriguez as saying.

If the area had always been submerged, the subsoil would only contain mud instead of sand.

Scientists think they stand a fair chance of finding archaeological remains in the marsh, though the link with Tartessos remains a mere hypothesis for the time being.

Knowledge about Tartessos had so far been based mainly on Greek and Latin literary sources, which described it as a civilization on the edge of the known world.

Often identified with Tarshish mentioned in the Bible, the kingdom traded profitably with the Phoenicians and Carthaginians, and may even have discovered a route to Britain.

Some researchers equate Tartessos with Atlantis, the utopia described by the Greek philosopher Plato, which is said to have sunk into the sea.

Tartessos disappeared mysteriously around 500 BC. Some believe it was destroyed by the Carthaginians, but the new geological evidence from the Marisma de Hinojos makes it look possible that two tsunamis wiped out the settlement located there, according to El Pais.

Some remains identified with Tartessos have been found, including a palace-sanctuary near Badajoz and a necropolis in Huelva, but no major urban settlement.

As the next step, scientists intend to make a hole 7 metres deep into the marshland to see what - if anything - lies underneath.

If the remains of a Tartessian city were found, that might bring invaluable information to historians divided over whether Tartessos had an identity of its own, or whether it was just an extension of the Phoenician civilization.

� 2007 dpa - Deutsche Presse-Agentur
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