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History's Hinge - 'Ain Jalut

[Diving Doc]

Following up on your clues I found a coin with far better relief on a  similar shield but the cross is different and it was minted in Granada. If you would be so kind as to explain the devices in the shield for our members. It would be easier for them to follow how you came to the circa date. Many thanks.
Doc

[moneypenny]

Well, you've come up with a more difficult one here, Doc.   You are correct that this escudo was minted in Grenada, and notice that the G is on the left of the shield, whereas on the last coin, the S for Seville was on the right side. There is so much variation to coins of this period.  As with the previous escudo, the reign is that of Carlos I and Juana.  It was during Carlos I's reign that the first New World mints were opened, and the designs there were, in some cases, different than the Old World mints.
  Spanish history at this time was incredibly complicated, and treachery, secrets, and even murders were commonplace in the Royal Courts.  Reality was more exciting and convoluted than the best fiction!  Carlos I was known as the first king of a united Spain.  He inherited his grandfather, Ferdinand II's realm. (Yes, of Ferdinand and Isabella, and that is yet another amazing story).  This realm included Aragon, Navarre, Naples, Sicily, and Sardinia. He also was joint king of Castile/Leon with Juana. He gained Grenada, and the Spanish possessions in the New World. When his grandfather Maximillian died in 1519 he inherited Hapsburg lands in Austria. Many other small provinces came to his rule including the Low Countries, Brabants, Flanders, Tyrol, Utrecht, etc.  All in all, Carlos I was King to 20 countries, Archduke to 1, Duke to 5, Count to 5, and Lord of 2.  Then he was crowned by the Pope in 1520 as Holy Roman Emperor (and known as Charles V), which showed the world that he was most powerful.   Some of the lands were gained through wars which Carlos seemed to be fighting throughout most of his reign.  And we can't forget his mother, Juana, who ruled with him in name only, as she lived in retreat in her castle most of the time, not able to appear in public in her state of insanity. She lived on until 1555, and the next year, Carlos abdicated to his son Philip II.  Two years later, Carlos died. 
   This coin's shield is very similar to that of Carlos' grandfather's, with the 4 quadrant design of castles and lions (signifying Castile and Leon) appearing in the upper left and lower right. On the lower left we see the designs for Aragon and that of Naples & Sicily.  And at the bottom center we see the Pomegranate, symbol for Grenada.
  And now I present a question for the coin experts out there - I am not sure about the two designs in the upper right of the shield (a cross, and a set of circles and lines) because I don't have my references at hand.  Any help out there?   
Once again, I encourage everyone to look into this era of Spanish history for some fantastic stories.
moneypenny

[Diving Doc]

Mi' Gawd Moneypenny!
I have never known you to be stumped! Must be a fair bit of confusion here. I do know that Granada and Seville were called to account on the coin designs, a matter of precedence. Perhaps the confusion results from the acquisitions of the Spanish Crown and the pertinent fact that that no records are now in existence which properly date the events?  And. of course, the coins themselves are not dated.

Upper right hand quadrant?  Could it be Franche-Comete, Jerusalem, or the Siciliys? Or, and I beg pardon here, by any stretch of the imagination, could it be the Provinces?

A mystery coin, like those Ducats of the Sicilys?

For sure, a secret we do hope you will unravel. I will search my collection and those of my associates for more examples.

Thanking you for your days of work Moneypenny,
Moran Taing,
Doc

[moneypenny]

No, Doc, the coin is not rare or confusing. This shield design was used for many years. Just a bit early for me in my knowledge of cob design.  I agree that the compressed cross in the upper right section of the shield could be Jerusalem, as it is the same as the Jerusalem cross that was commonly used on the reverse of the coins.
   To see the variety of coin design, take a look at the coin photo I've attached.  When Carlos I opened the first mint in the New World in Mexico in 1535, they issued reales with a completely different design called the "pillars & waves" design. And even this design which was used under other kings as well, can be found in many variations. And of course another whole story behind the elements in the 'Pillars & Waves'. Oh, how we could go on! 
  This is precisely why cobs are so fascinating. So many designs, such differences in quality. Land finds, shipwreck finds - exciting!
  moneypenny

[Diving Doc]

Aye,

so it's just the wee device to the right of the cross, correct? What I find confusing is that the shield, better we call it the coat of arms, on coins from Granada and Seville differ. Since these coins were not dated the only clue we have to go on is the devices used to even be close to the time. By your leave, I have posted the coin to Don MacKay in hopes that he might help us with the history.
Cheers,
Doc

[Solomon]

I see that this 1 Escudo (S for Seville Mint) is also of Carlos & Juana. Though I know nothing of the subject, I know what I like

Solomon

[moneypenny]

Ah, it is so wonderful to be a member of such a generous and knowledgeable group of folks.  Don MacKay has kindly written back with the info on the upper right design on the Carlos & Juana escudo.  And I quote him here:
    "Here's the interpretation of the image in the upper right of your coin.
The kingdom of Navarre used a red eagle, substituted on 1212 by the red chains which still stand today as their coat of arms. On 16 July 1212 the king of Navarra, Sancho VII el Fuerte, took part in the battle of Las Navas de Tolosa, south of Spain, nowadays, far from the boundaries of the kingdom, between the territories of Castile and Leon and the Moors, being invited by the Pope Inocentium III to join the Allied Coalition  (Crusades) along with Alonso VIII, who commanded Castile and Pedro II of Aragon, except Alfonso IX of Leon, against the Moorish King (Caliph or Emir) of the Almohad dinasty, known as Miramamolin. The Moorish king inspired an arabic coalition and camped on Las Navas de Tolosa, and had the royal tent surrounded by a gold chain, which, assaulted by Knights of Navarre, was seized and put into their new coat of arms."
  Thanks so much for that, Don.   The information made me very curious about this part of Spanish history, and in searching the web, I found quite a few interpretations of the occurrences at the battle of Las Navas de Tolosa related to the chain.  Some accounts even state that the royal encampment was surrounded by a herd of camels on the inside, with a line of slaves with huge spears facing the enemy and the Caliph in royal robes inside this ring, reading continuously from the Koran!
  The following website quotes writings from the 1200's, which detail the battle.
  www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/SOURCES/tolosa.htm

Moneypenny

[Diving Doc]

Well Moneypenny,
with that great piece of intel from Don MacKay the story on the device in the coat of arms on the shield becomes clear, doesn't it? The die makers must have gotten lazy because not all coins of Carlos and Johanna show as well, the full image.
Cheers,
Doc

[DeepDiver]

Miz Moneypenny,
I have really liked following this story. I ahve an old coin I've carried for years and I wonder if you would give a littel look, please? I know its spanish and its a two real but not much more. One of the kids on the tug did the picture for me. Id really appreaciate it.
thanks,
Dave

[moneypenny]

Sorry to take so long in responding to your question about this nice silver cob.  The design of the obverse of this coin gives us a chance to explore the other style of cobs called "Pillars & Waves".  The two vertical pillars symbolize the Pillars of Hercules which mythologically spanned the Straits of Gibraltar, with one foot in Spain and the other in Morocco.  The waves symbolized the Atlantic Ocean, and the words PLUS ULTRA were stamped across the middle of the design, meaning "more beyond", a reference to the New World, which Spain felt it had the right to control.  The words PLUS ULTRA were divided up into 3 sections, thus we have PLU - SUL - TRA, with the U's written as V's.  Other parts of this tic-tac-toe design were the mintmark in the upper left and lower right, and the Assayer's initial in the upper right and lower left.  In the center top was the denomination. In this case a large 2.  In the center bottom was the minting date.
   On the reverse we see the familiar castles and lions within the Jerusalem cross. And once again we see the assayer's initial to the right, and a P for the Potosi Mint to the left.  The denomination was normally repeated at the center top, and the last 2 or 3 digits of the date at center bottom.  On this coin however, it is very difficult to make out the assayer, the denomination, or the whole date. The mintmark is very clear however. 
  Back to the obverse, the assayer is clearly seen as Y in the upper right corner.  In checking my references, I see that there was only one assayer in Potosi with the initial Y, and that was Diego de Ybarbouru, who was in charge from 1701-1727. His cobs are known to be crudely made as we can see on this 2 reales.  Much of the strike is poorly executed and many of the elements I've just described are difficult or impossible to make out in these photos.   I am fairly sure I can make out the date as 1722, but wouldn't swear to it on the basis of what I can see here.
   The king during this time was Philip V, the first Bourbon king of Spain, and grandson of Louis XIV of France.
   In a future post I'll explain the reason for switching to the Pillars & Waves design from the King's Shield design we had discussed in earlier posts.
   Hope this has helped you to appreciate your 2 reales, a little piece of history, Dave.
Moneypenny

[DeepDiver]

Well Miz. Moneypenny you have made my lucky piece just that much more special now I know the history. Thank you for your time. Im very interested in the shields of the coins. Our divers would scrub on a piece and tell me all sorts of things and it was a mystery how they knew. I'd like to laern more about this and Im looking forward to your lesson.
Dave

[moneypenny]

Glad to have stirred your interest in these great coins, Dave.  But before discussing the Shield type coins again (as I have in past posts), I'd like to share some examples of "Pillars and Waves" coins that show other variations in the basic design. The earliest reales minted in the New World were of a much simpler Pillar and Wave design than the 2 reales we discussed last.  Look below this post to see some examples.  The Mexico City mint which was authorized by King Charles I (Carlos I) in 1535 began with this design but switched to a Shield type around 1572.  There were no 8 reales produced of the Pillars type at this time.  Other mints used variations of the type over the years. 
moneypenny

[moneypenny]

Deep Diver asked for more info on the shield designs of Spanish cobs, so here's a bit of info.
   As we've seen in this thread previously, the obverse of a cob was not always the royal shield, but it was the most common.  The shield design was changed often. Not only with a change of King, but also sometimes within a king's reign, and if that wasn't enough, there were variations from mint to mint.  And differences between Old World and New World mints as well.  So you begin to see why the study of Spanish cobs can be  complicated. 
  Why so many changes in design?  Mostly because Spain was almost continuously at war with some country or other throughout these 3 centuries (1500-1800).  They were always conquering and annexing countries into their realm, and when they did so, they represented the acquisitions on the royal shield.   Just as an example, take Philip III's reign.  His shield design changed at least 5 times in just over 20 yrs. Some of these changes were very subtle.
  Besides wars, Spain acquired lands through marriage, and an advantageous match which expanded the countries ruled was a very important consideration to choosing a mate. 
  The two main shield designs you will most likely see on cobs are the Great Hapsburg shield, and the Bourbon shield.   From Philip II in 1556 through Charles II in 1700, the Great Hapsburg shield will be found on those coins with a shield design. After 1700, Philip V brought in the Bourbon shield with the Fleurs-de-Lis added in the center.
   Since I am not a coin expert, but merely a student of this fascinating subject, I welcome comments and criticism of these posts so that we can all learn together.
moneypenny

[DeepDiver]

Miz Moneypenny, I surely thank you for all the lessons. I'd like to learn more aboot the little things in the shields, like the Navarre thing. If I understand correctly each little thing on the coin had something to do with some conquest or territory and then they changed the shield on the coins. Is that about right? I'm still trying to figure how these young divers could see a coin with only half of a shield design and tell me which king it was.

Dave

[Diving Doc]

Our new member Grubby has posted a coin. Let's do an ID together on this later today, O.K.? That's a great shield!
Doc