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[Solomon]

Well, that's the view of somebody from the website you mentioned.

I do know for certain that you cannot relic hunt on any property owned by the US Government

This absolute statement then seems to be contradicted: "it is MUCH easier to metal detect on private property than government". Maybe I misunderstand National Forest, Military Reservations, National Parks and Monuments and Parks, Forests, and Public Property.

I see that Nighthawks are a problem in the USA, as in the UK. They have harmed us all.

Solomon

[Bart]

It seems to be, but in fact it is not, you can hunt certain relics on private property, such as Civil War relics. A violation occurs when the relics are associated with a grave.

- Bart

[Bart]

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 1B > ? 470aaPrev | Next

? 470aa. Congressional findings and declaration of purpose

(a) The Congress finds that?

(1) archaeological resources on public lands and Indian lands are an accessible and irreplaceable part of the Nation?s heritage;

(2) these resources are increasingly endangered because of their commercial attractiveness;

(3) existing Federal laws do not provide adequate protection to prevent the loss and destruction of these archaeological resources and sites resulting from uncontrolled excavations and pillage; and

(4) there is a wealth of archaeological information which has been legally obtained by private individuals for noncommercial purposes and which could voluntarily be made available to professional archaeologists and institutions.

(b) The purpose of this chapter is to secure, for the present and future benefit of the American people, the protection of archaeological resources and sites which are on public lands and Indian lands, and to foster increased cooperation and exchange of information between governmental authorities, the professional archaeological community, and private individuals having collections of archaeological resources and data which were obtained before October 31, 1979.

? 470bb. Definitions

As used in this chapter?

(1) The term ?archaeological resource? means any material remains of past human life or activities which are of archaeological interest, as determined under uniform regulations promulgated pursuant to this chapter. Such regulations containing such determi?nation shall include, but not be limited to: ?pottery, basketry, bottles, weapons, weapon projectiles, tools, structures or portions of structures, pit houses, rock paintings, rock carvings, intaglios, graves, human skeletal materials, or any portion or piece of any of the foregoing items. Nonfossilized and fossilized paleontological specimens, or any portion or piece thereof, shall not be considered archaeological resources, under the regulations under this paragraph, unless found in archaeological context. No item shall be treated as an archaeological resource under regulations under this paragraph unless such item is at least 100 years of age.

(2) The term ?Federal land manager? means, with respect to any public lands, the Secretary of the department, or the head of any other agency or instrumentality of the United States, having primary management authority over such lands. In the case of any public lands or Indian lands with respect to which no department, agency, or instrumentality has primary management authority, such term means the Secretary of the Interior. If the Secretary of the Interior consents, the responsibilities (in whole or in part) under this chapter of the Secretary of any department (other than the Department of the Interior) or the head of any other agency or instrumentality may be delegated to the Secretary of the Interior with respect to any land managed by such other Secretary or agency head, and in any such case, the term ?Federal land manager? means the Secretary of the Interior.

(3) The term ?public lands? means?

(A) lands which are owned and administered by the United States as part of?

(i) the national park system,

(ii) the national wildlife refuge system, or

(iii) the national forest system; and

(B) all other lands the fee title to which is held by the United States, other than lands on the Outer Continental Shelf and lands which are under the jurisdiction of the Smithsonian Institution.

(4) The term ?Indian lands? means lands of Indian tribes, or Indian individuals, which are either held in trust by the United States or subject to a restriction against alienation imposed by the United States, except for any subsurface interests in lands not owned or controlled by an Indian tribe or an Indian individual.

(5) The term ?Indian tribe? means any Indian tribe, band, nation, or other organized group or community, including any Alaska Native village or regional or village corporation as defined in, or established pursuant to, the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act (85 Stat. 688) [43 U.S.C. 1601 et seq.].

(6) The term ?person? means an individual, corporation, partnership, trust, institution, association, or any other private entity or any officer, employee, agent, department, or instrumentality of the United States, of any Indian tribe, or of any State or political subdivision thereof.

(7) The term ?State? means any of the fifty States, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands.

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 1B > ? 470ccPrev | Next

? 470cc. Excavation and removal

(a) Application for permit

    Any person may apply to the Federal land manager for a permit to excavate or remove any archaeological resource located on public lands or Indian lands and to carry out activities associated with such excavation or removal. The application shall be required, under uniform regulations under this chapter, to contain such information as the Federal land manager deems necessary, including information concerning the time, scope, and location and specific purpose of the proposed work.

(b) Determinations by Federal land manager prerequisite to issuance of permit
A permit may be issued pursuant to an application under subsection (a) of this section if the Federal land manager determines, pursuant to uniform regulations under this chapter, that?

(1) the applicant is qualified, to carry out the permitted activity,

(2) the activity is undertaken for the purpose of furthering archaeological knowledge in the public interest,

(3) the archaeological resources which are excavated or removed from public lands will remain the property of the United States, and such resources and copies of associated archaeological records and data will be preserved by a suitable university, museum, or other scientific or educational institution, and

(4) the activity pursuant to such permit is not inconsistent with any management plan applicable to the public lands concerned.

(c) Notification to Indian tribes of possible harm to or destruction of sites having religious or cultural importance

     If a permit issued under this section may result in harm to, or destruction of, any religious or cultural site, as determined by the Federal land manager, before issuing such permit, the Federal land manager shall notify any Indian tribe which may consider the site as having religious or cultural importance. Such notice shall not be deemed a disclosure to the public for purposes of section 470hh of this title.

(d) Terms and conditions of permit

Any permit under this section shall contain such terms and conditions, pursuant to uniform regulations promulgated under this chapter, as the Federal land manager concerned deems necessary to carry out the purposes of this chapter.

(e) Identification of individuals responsible for complying with permit terms and conditions and other applicable laws

Each permit under this section shall identify the individual who shall be responsible for carrying out the terms and conditions of the permit and for otherwise complying with this chapter and other law applicable to the permitted activity.
(f) Suspension or revocation of permits; grounds

Any permit issued under this section may be suspended by the Federal land manager upon his determination that the permittee has violated any provision of subsection (a), (b), or (c) of section 470ee of this title. Any such permit may be revoked by such Federal land manager upon assessment of a civil penalty under section 470ff of this title against the permittee or upon the permittee?s conviction under section 470ee of this title.
(g) Excavation or removal by Indian tribes or tribe members; excavation or removal of resources located on Indian lands

(1) No permit shall be required under this section or under the Act of June 8, 1906 (16 U.S.C. 431), for the excavation or removal by any Indian tribe or member thereof of any archaeological resource located on Indian lands of such Indian tribe, except that in the absence of tribal law regulating the excavation or removal of archaeological resources on Indian lands, an individual tribal member shall be required to obtain a permit under this section.

(2) In the case of any permits for the excavation or removal of any archaelogical resource located on Indian lands, the permit may be granted only after obtaining the consent of the Indian or Indian tribe owning or having jurisdiction over such lands. The permit shall include such terms and conditions as may be requested by such Indian or Indian tribe.
(h) Permits issued under Antiquities Act of 1906

(1) No permit or other permission shall be required under the Act of June 8, 1906 (16 U.S.C. 431?433), for any activity for which a permit is issued under this section.

(2) Any permit issued under the Act of June 8, 1906 [16 U.S.C. 431?433], shall remain in effect according to its terms and conditions following the enactment of this chapter. No permit under this chapter shall be required to carry out any activity under a permit issued under the Act of June 8, 1906, before October 31, 1979, which remains in effect as provided in this paragraph, and nothing in this chapter shall modify or affect any such permit.

(i) Compliance with provisions relating to undertakings on property listed in the National Register not required

Issuance of a permit in accordance with this section and applicable regulations shall not require compliance with section 470f of this title.

(j) Issuance of permits to State Governors for archaeological activities on behalf of States or their educational institutions

     Upon the written request of the Governor of any State, the Federal land manager shall issue a permit, subject to the provisions of subsections (b)(3), (b)(4), (c), (e), (f), (g), (h), and (i) of this section for the purpose of conducting archaeological research, excavation, removal, and curation, on behalf of the State or its educational institutions, to such Governor or to such designee as the Governor deems qualified to carry out the intent of this chapter.

? 470ee. Prohibited acts and criminal penalties

(a) Unauthorized excavation, removal, damage, alteration, or defacement of archaeological resources

     No person may excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface, or attempt to excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface any archaeological resource located on public lands or Indian lands unless such activity is pursuant to a permit issued under section 470cc of this title, a permit referred to in section 470cc (h)(2) of this title, or the exemption contained in section 470cc (g)(1) of this title.

(b) Trafficking in archaeological resources the excavation or removal of which was wrongful under Federal law

     No person may sell, purchase, exchange, transport, receive, or offer to sell, purchase, or exchange any archaeological resource if such resource was excavated or removed from public lands or Indian lands in violation of?

(1) the prohibition contained in subsection (a) of this section, or

(2) any provision, rule, regulation, ordinance, or permit in effect under any other provision of Federal law.

(c) Trafficking in interstate or foreign commerce in archaeological resources the excavation, removal, sale, purchase, exchange, transportation or receipt of which was wrongful under State or local law.

     No person may sell, purchase, exchange, transport, receive, or offer to sell, purchase, or exchange, in interstate or foreign commerce, any archaeological resource excavated, removed, sold, purchased, exchanged, transported, or received in violation of any provision, rule, regulation, ordinance, or permit in effect under State or local law.

(d) Penalties

     Any person who knowingly violates, or counsels, procures, solicits, or employs any other person to violate, any prohibition contained in subsection (a), (b), or (c) of this section shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than one year, or both: Provided, however, That if the commercial or archaeological value of the archaeological resources involved and the cost of restoration and repair of such resources exceeds the sum of $500, such person shall be fined not more than $20,000 or imprisoned not more than two years, or both. In the case of a second or subsequent such violation upon conviction such person shall be fined not more than $100,000, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

(e) Effective date

The prohibitions contained in this section shall take effect on October 31, 1979.

(f) Prospective application

     Nothing in subsection (b)(1) of this section shall be deemed applicable to any person with respect to an archaeological resource which was in the lawful possession of such person prior to October 31, 1979.

(g) Removal of arrowheads located on ground surface

    Nothing in subsection (d) of this section shall be deemed applicable to any person with respect to the removal of arrowheads located on the surface of the ground.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode16/usc_sup_01_16_10_1B.html

[Bart]

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 1B > ? 470dd   Prev | Next

? 470dd. Custody of archaeological resources

The Secretary of the Interior may promulgate regulations providing for?

(1) the exchange, where appropriate, between suitable universities, museums, or other scientific or educational institutions, of archaeological resources removed from public lands and Indian lands pursuant to this chapter, and

(2) the ultimate disposition of such resources and other resources removed pursuant to the Act of June 27, 1960 (16 U.S.C. 469?469c) [16 U.S.C. 469?469c?1] or the Act of June 8, 1906 (16 U.S.C. 431?433).

     Any exchange or ultimate disposition under such regulation of archaeological resources excavated or removed from Indian lands shall be subject to the consent of the Indian or Indian tribe which owns or has jurisdiction over such lands. Following promulgation of regulations under this section, notwithstanding any other provision of law, such regulations shall govern the disposition of archaeological resources removed from public lands and Indian lands pursuant to this chapter.

[Bart]

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 1B > ? 470ee   Prev | Next

? 470ee. Prohibited acts and criminal penalties

(a) Unauthorized excavation, removal, damage, alteration, or defacement of archaeological resources

     No person may excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface, or attempt to excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface any archaeological resource located on public lands or Indian lands unless such activity is pursuant to a permit issued under section 470cc of this title, a permit referred to in section 470cc (h)(2) of this title, or the exemption contained in section 470cc (g)(1) of this title.

(b) Trafficking in archaeological resources the excavation or removal of which was wrongful under Federal law

No person may sell, purchase, exchange, transport, receive, or offer to sell, purchase, or exchange any archaeological resource if such resource was excavated or removed from public lands or Indian lands in violation of?

(1) the prohibition contained in subsection (a) of this section, or

(2) any provision, rule, regulation, ordinance, or permit in effect under any other provision of Federal law.

(c) Trafficking in interstate or foreign commerce in archaeological resources the excavation, removal, sale, purchase, exchange, transportation or receipt of which was wrongful under State or local law

No person may sell, purchase, exchange, transport, receive, or offer to sell, purchase, or exchange, in interstate or foreign commerce, any archaeological resource excavated, removed, sold, purchased, exchanged, transported, or received in violation of any provision, rule, regulation, ordinance, or permit in effect under State or local law.
(d) Penalties

Any person who knowingly violates, or counsels, procures, solicits, or employs any other person to violate, any prohibition contained in subsection (a), (b), or (c) of this section shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than one year, or both: Provided, however, That if the commercial or archaeological value of the archaeological resources involved and the cost of restoration and repair of such resources exceeds the sum of $500, such person shall be fined not more than $20,000 or imprisoned not more than two years, or both. In the case of a second or subsequent such violation upon conviction such person shall be fined not more than $100,000, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.



(e) Effective date

The prohibitions contained in this section shall take effect on October 31, 1979.

(f) Prospective application

     Nothing in subsection (b)(1) of this section shall be deemed applicable to any person with respect to an archaeological resource which was in the lawful possession of such person prior to October 31, 1979.

(g) Removal of arrowheads located on ground surface

     Nothing in subsection (d) of this section shall be deemed applicable to any person with respect to the removal of arrowheads located on the surface of the ground.

[Bart]

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 1B > ? 470kk   Prev | Next

? 470kk. Savings provisions

(a) Mining, mineral leasing, reclamation, and other multiple uses

     Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to repeal, modify, or impose additional restrictions on the activities permitted under existing laws and authorities relating to mining, mineral leasing, reclamation, and other multiple uses of the public lands.

(b) Private collections

     Nothing in this chapter applies to, or requires a permit for, the collection for private purposes of any rock, coin, bullet, or mineral which is not an archaeological resource, as determined under uniform regulations promulgated under section 470bb (1) of this title.

(c) Lands within chapter

     Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to affect any land other than public land or Indian land or to affect the lawful recovery, collection, or sale of archaeological resources from land other than public land or Indian land.

[Bart]

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 1B > ? 470mm   Prev | Next

? 470mm. Surveying of lands; reporting of violations

     The Secretaries of the Interior, Agriculture, and Defense and the Chairman of the Board of the Tennessee Valley Authority shall?

(a) develop plans for surveying lands under their control to determine the nature and extent of archeological resources on those lands;

(b) prepare a schedule for surveying lands that are likely to contain the most scientifically valuable archeological resources; and

(c) develop documents for the reporting of suspected violations of this chapter and establish when and how those documents are to be completed by officers, employees, and agents of their respective agencies.

[Bart]

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 1B > ? 470ff   Prev | Next

? 470ff. Civil penalties

(a) Assessment by Federal land manager

(1) Any person who violates any prohibition contained in an applicable regulation or permit issued under this chapter may be assessed a civil penalty by the Federal land manager concerned. No penalty may be assessed under this subsection unless such person is given notice and opportunity for a hearing with respect to such violation. Each violation shall be a separate offense. Any such civil penalty may be remitted or mitigated by the Federal land manager concerned.

(2) The amount of such penalty shall be determined under regulations promulgated pursuant to this chapter, taking into account, in addition to other factors?
(A) the archaeological or commercial value of the archaeological resource involved, and
(B) the cost of restoration and repair of the resource and the archaeological site involved.
Such regulations shall provide that, in the case of a second or subsequent violation by any person, the amount of such civil penalty may be double the amount which would have been assessed if such violation were the first violation by such person. The amount of any penalty assessed under this subsection for any violation shall not exceed an amount equal to double the cost of restoration and repair of resources and archaeological sites damaged and double the fair market value of resources destroyed or not recovered.

(3) No penalty shall be assessed under this section for the removal of arrowheads located on the surface of the ground.

(b) Judicial review of assessed penalties; collection of unpaid assessments

(1) Any person aggrieved by an order assessing a civil penalty under subsection (a) of this section may file a petition for judicial review of such order with the United States District Court for the District of Columbia or for any other district in which such a person resides or transacts business. Such a petition may only be filed within the 30-day period beginning on the date the order making such assessment was issued. The court shall hear such action on the record made before the Federal land manager and shall sustain his action if it is supported by substantial evidence on the record considered as a whole.

(2) If any person fails to pay an assessment of a civil penalty?

(A) after the order making the assessment has become a final order and such person has not filed a petition for judicial review of the order in accordance with paragraph (1), or

(B) after a court in an action brought under paragraph (1) has entered a final judgment upholding the assessment of a civil penalty, the Federal land managers may request the Attorney General to institute a civil action in a district court of the United States for any district in which such person is found, resides, or transacts business to collect the penalty and such court shall have jurisdiction to hear and decide any such action. In such action, the validity and amount of such penalty shall not be subject to review.

(c) Hearings

     Hearings held during proceedings for the assessment of civil penalties authorized by subsection (a) of this section shall be conducted in accordance with section 554 of title 5. The Federal land manager may issue subpenas for the attendance and testimony of witnesses and the production of relevant papers, books, and documents, and administer oaths. Witnesses summoned shall be paid the same fees and mileage that are paid to witnesses in the courts of the United States. In case of contumacy or refusal to obey a subpena served upon any person pursuant to this paragraph, the district court of the United States for any district in which such person is found or resides or transacts business, upon application by the United States and after notice to such person, shall have jurisdiction to issue an order requiring such person to appear and give testimony before the Federal land manager or to appear and produce documents before the Federal land manager, or both, and any failure to obey such order of the court may be punished by such court as a contempt ?thereof.

[Bart]

New rule may help Native American tribes reclaim artifacts

Kevin Livelli
Columbia News Service
Apr. 12, 2007

   It's been nearly a dozen years since museums and federal agencies had to notify American Indian tribes about artifacts in their collections that might have been stolen from or lost by the tribes. But a new federal regulation may make it easier for the tribes to identify such objects.

   It was a hot and arid day in Pecos, N.M., when the elders and leaders of the Jemez Pueblo tribe welcomed an outsider into the fold: archaeologist William Whatley.

   Wearing colorful headbands, the old men sat down on the ground with Whatley. Then they began drawing images in the dust--images of bones, masks and pottery that had gone missing or been looted from the tribe. The elders implored Whatley to use his scientific knowledge to find the objects and help return them to the tribe. Not an easy task.

   That was nearly 20 years ago. Now, for other tribes searching for lost or stolen items, the process may get a lot easier.

   In mid-March, the Department of the Interior's National NAGPRA program, which helps carry out the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, announced a regulation requiring museums, universities and federal agencies in possession of Native American art and artifacts to provide new lists of their inventories and to share them with all federally recognized tribes within six months.

  The rule, which takes effect April 20, marks the first time in a dozen years that museums and federal agencies have had to share with tribes what is in their collections. This process may uncover many items missing for years, and it may make encourage tribes to start making repatriation claims to get their artifacts back.

   Repatriation is a process frequently fraught with tension between museums and tribes. Curators and scholars have an interest in preserving items for their educational and research value. For the tribes, reclaiming their objects can have a spiritual and cultural significance. But for some, it can lead to big business. A reclaimed object can establish a tribe's right to land, which it might want to develop--sometimes into a casino.

   "This promises to have a big impact for many tribes, especially those recently recognized by the federal government," said Dr. Rayna Green, a Cherokee and the curator and director of the American Indian program at the Smithsonian Institution. "And it's not just about cultural heritage. It's about money and land and property. This is America, after all."

   Yet even if the new rule helps tribes find many sacred objects, it won't necessarily help them overcome the many obstacles inherent in the repatriation process.

   "Tribes and museums approach decisions about sacred objects carefully," said Dr. Timothy McKeown, the senior program coordinator at the NAGPRA office and the man responsible for overseeing the entire repatriation process. "Repatriation is not just something you can do overnight."

   To begin with, tribes can struggle with issues of confidentiality when filing a claim. Many tribes, especially the Pueblo groups in the Southwest, have strict customs and rules about sharing tribal information with outsiders. Yet the law requires a tribe to reasonably establish its historical connection to a particular object.

   The Pueblo Indians of San Eldefanso made a claim in the mid-1990s but backed away when a dispute over the claim led to litigation in federal court. They didn't want to have to testify and reveal tribal secrets.

   Even putting together the claim can be a challenge. In many instances, a tribe's spoken language--like that of the Jemez Pueblo--isn't written down and can't be easily transferred into the legalese necessary to file a claim. And hiring lawyers costs money, something many smaller tribes lack.

   When claims are readied for filing, McKeown says tribes sometimes argue among themselves and with neighboring tribes over who has the right to proceed with that claim, who should act as spokesman and who will be responsible for the objects once they return.

   One such case currently under review by McKeown's office involves funerary objects and human remains that were recently found in Chaco Canyon National Park in New Mexico. Representatives from Pueblo, Navajo and Hopi tribes have all made competing claims for the same objects.

   The tribes' competing claims can stir feuds that go back hundreds of years. "It has to do with very old notions of clan and kinship and philosophical and religious ideas about death and the afterlife," Green said.

   "The issue is important because what you and I call artifacts are in their worlds living tribal members with the same rights as people," Whatley said.

   Once objects are successfully returned to tribes, one serious issue frequently remains. Many of the items belonging to tribes in the Iroquois Six Nations and the Hopi Nation are perishable--cornhusk masks or headdresses with feathers. When these items come into a museum's collection, they are often sprayed with arsenic or another pesticide for preservation.

   But upon return, the masks and headdresses are often worn in ceremonies, endangering the lives of tribal members and leaving the museum potentially liable for any resulting injury or illness.

   "That's something we in the museum world are trying to remedy," Green said. "We're looking now into alternative means of preservation, like flash freezing objects."

   Though the path to repatriation may take many years, Whatley says the end result will be worth the trouble for tribes. Over nine years, he has helped return thousands of objects to the Pueblo Jemez from museums around the country.

   Back in dusty Pecos, thousands of Indians gathered in 1999 to welcome home their "tribal members." Museum curators and staff were on hand too, watching from a respectful distance.

   Whatley, however, was by then a special guest of the tribe and had special access. He said he felt something that day that transcended science, money, land and all his pre-existing notions about Native American culture.

   The experience, he said, has stayed with him and opened his eyes to a new way of looking at life. "There's a lot more to this on the spiritual side than many non-Indians realize," he said.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0412repat-ON-CR.html.html

[Wopper]

Howdy History Hunters,

I just got done scanning through this topic, and I didn't see where anybody posted the actual laws pertaining to treasure in the United States. If somebody already has posted it, then forgive me for reposting it. The law reads as follows:

Treasure Trove

Literally, treasure found. Money or coin, gold, silver, plate or bullion found hidden in the earth or other place, the owner thereof being unknown. Called in Latin "thesaurus inventus" and in Saxon "fynderinga." Finder of treasure trove, is entitled thereto as against owner of the land where such treasure is found and all the world save the true owner, in absence of statue.

As I understand it, this law was adopted here in the US. from the old English law pertaining to treasure trove. The main problem with this law was the fact that a person could criminally tresspass on private property to recover treasure, and with no statute in place by law be the legal owner of the treasure. Unfortunately for treasure hunters, and extremely fortunate for private land owners, most if not all of the States have implamented laws protecting land owners.

Furthermore, if a treasure is 100 years old or older, the United States doesn't believe anybody is still alive to claim the treasure. Unless the original owner can be proving, then his or hers direct descendant's would be entitled to the treasure.

The following applies to treasure found on Federal land:
'
The United States as the land owner, has a right to a portion if not all the treasure found on its land. Furtermore, if you find anything with treasure other than treasure, including human remains, or a single artifact deemed an antiquity by a bona fide Archaeologist, the United States Government has a right to confiscate the entire treasure trove as an antiquities resource.

This last paragraph was, or is the main problem with the the treasure trove law here in the United States. In fact, it has fueled illegal activity and the destruction of antiquities. It is ridiculous to think that you can find one, without the other. They just go hand in hand with each other. Let me use a pirate treasure as an example. Pirates normally buried their treasure in a chest, the chest could be deemed an antiquity and therefore the treasure would be confiscated. It is also said that the unlucky soles who packed the chest and dug the hole, were killed and their bodies were thrown in with the chest to protect it. There is also the old saying, "dead men tell no tales," and the motto of the Hell's Angels "three can keep a secret if two are dead." So it is pretty safe to assume that you more than likely will find one or the other with treasure, and our good old government would confiscate it.

I said "was," because I believe there has been a precedence set with the Brother Jonathan shipwreck court case. The Judge in his ruling decided that the laws were very clear on what treasure is, and what antiquities are. The Judge separated the two, and awarded the finders the treasure and the State of California the antiquities. I do believe that anybody who locates treasure on Federal land, has a fighting chance in our courts.

Sincerely,

Wopper

[Tayopa]

HMMM,    What about federally controlled waters? what about the states declared rights?

As for winning a case, fine, but what is left after a legal court division and legal costs? 

Where is there any incentive to possibly spend years and money tracking down and recovering a treasure, Archaeological site,  ship, or lost mine?  Titled Archaeologists in general have neither the time, money, nor interest and inclination for this, sooo? 

In fact most recent finds or locations have come about by the individual having an interest in the project,  both intellectually and financially.  One begets the other no? The individual expends time, "talent", and money in the search, shouldn't he be rewarded appropriately?

This also brings up the question, should an accredited Archaeologist be morally/legally  bound to never keep anything in a / his private collection as a "conflict of public interests"?

In other words, if it is of sufficient value for one to consider it for his private collection then it must be equally or more valuable  in a public museum display for all to enjoy and learn from.  He/ she can go the museum to study it the same as anyone else.

This comes from one that has seen some fantastic private collections in the homes of his Archaeological friends, who seem to consider themselves as privileged  above the law by reason of their title...

The line forms on the right --->

A frustrated Don Jose de La Mancha

[Wopper]

Howdy Don Jose,
 
I understand your frustration.
 

What about federally controlled waters?

 
So long as the shipwreck in question is not a "man of war," and you acquired the rights of any insurance company that might have a claim, you as the finder would without a doubt be awarded the treasure. Take a look at the USS Central America shipwreck case.
 

what about the states declared rights?

 
When it comes to Federal lands or waters, the states have no rights.
 

Where is any incentive? to possibly spend years and money tracking down and recovering a treasure or lost mine?

 
A treasure legally recovered and marketed correctly, brings in many times the melt value. So even if you had to share a portion with the state or Federal Government, it would be well worth the trouble to spend the years and time it takes to rightfully be awarded a treasure. One also should keep in mind the value of the story behind it. The book, documentary, and possible movie rights, could in all likelihood be worth more than the treasure itself.
 
Sincerely,
 
Wopper

[Tayopa]

OHIO:

First) the states water rights do have a bearng, witness the fiasco in Florida. and the East cost states.

Second) just how "long" are' an heirs rights effecitve?  Especially if If they have no knowlege of it's existance unlil after it has been recovered  nor have made any physical effort at a recovery ---??

Third ) Legally recovered and marketed?  Between the first and the later, many many years and expenses can pass.

At the moment  Britland seems to have the most logical answer..

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Wopper]

My dear friend Jose,
 
Please take a seat and try to relax a little bit, or better yet, go flop in your hammock with a bunch of grapes. Hopefully, Luchi is still around to wait hand and foot on you.
 

First) the states water rights do have a bearing, witness the fiasco in Florida. and the East cost states.

 
The Brother Jonathan case was in state waters. Even though the finders had an agreement to split the treasure with the state, the state decided to try to confiscate the entire treasure as an antiquities resource. The case went to trial, and the judge found in favor of the finders. The problem with most of the shipwrecks off of Florida, is they are considered Spanish man of wars. As such they are protected under new laws or agreements between the US., England, and Spain.
 

Second) just how "long" are' an heirs rights effective? Especially if If they have no knowledge of it's existence until after it has been recovered nor have made any physical effort at a recovery ---??

 
An heirs rights are protected indefinitely, so far as they are a direct descendant and it can be proven. Which means that documentation has to be found with, or exist for the treasure in question. I don�t know how this would come into play as far as a Jesuit, or church treasure would be concerned. Jesuits were sworn to celibacy, as such they would have no direct descendants.
 

Third ) Legally recovered and marketed? Between the first and the later, many many years and expenses can pass.

 
Yes, that is true. I myself encourage people to go the legal route, because to do the alternative is just plain wrong and sheds a bad light on treasure hunters and treasure hunting as a whole. In your case I can understand your frustration. Being 185 years of age you might not live long enough to hear the judges verdict, but what about your direct descendants being able to enjoy the fruits of your labor?

Sincerely,

Wopper

[Wopper]

Howdy Tayopa,

You have opened a whole nother can of worms with the following:

This also brings up the question, should an accredited Archaeologist be morally/legally  bound to never keep anything in a / his private collection as a "conflict of public interests"?

In other words, if it is of sufficient value for one to consider it for his private collection then it must be equally or more valuable  in a public museum display for all to enjoy and learn from.  He/ she can go the museum to study it the same as anyone else.

This comes from one that has seen some fantastic private collections in the homes of his Archaeological friends, who seem to consider themselves as privileged  above the law by reason of their title...

It would appear to be an accepted practice within the circles of licenced, or accredited Archaeologists. I don't know why that is, maybe they consider it acceptable to take home a memento or two from each dig they are involved with. Does that make it right, or justify it? Absolutely not. The collecting of artifacts is supposed to be done for either a museum collection, or for academic study. It is a known fact that Universities and museums across the country are out of storage room, and have more artifacts in their inventories then they could ever hope to display. But don't you or I dare touch a thing that we may come across, even if there is little to no chance that it will ever be collected by a licenced Archaeologist.  It is no wonder that a lot of people refer to them as licenced grave robbers.

Sincerely,

Wopper