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History's Hinge - 'Ain Jalut

[ole.Grubstake]

Can any of my learned colleges enlighten me on this spoon? It appears to have a rose and crown stamped into it and is made of pewter. From my site and I thought I'd share.
Grubby

[Bart]

Very nice find Grubby;

   A search using the term 'early/old European spoon hallmarks' turned up this http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=24474. While it doesn't identify the hallmark on your find, it does give the name of a CA state archaeologist who may well be able to identify it for you. A good closeup enlargement of the hallmark itself would be essential for identification. A cropped enlargement, using your camera software, should easily produce the closeup. Most of the references I found were for purchasing various hallmark books, and they did not appear to have any hallmarks as old as yours must be.

   It would help to have a date, such as from coins found at your wreck site, to narrow the search. And detailed descriptions/ photos of other artifacts from the same site should also help narrow it to a specific era. There were a lot of references for hallmarks, but I was unable to search them all, your persistence may pay off. Hope that helps! Good luck, and let us know, all the artifacts will tell a story, and we would love to read that story here!

- Bart

[ole.Grubstake]

I'll try for a closeup with my digital. It is a crown with the same rose on it I saw on the charles coin Solomon had posted. That is what got my interest. It is from the same site where all the 1600's coins have come from.
Grubby

[ole.Grubstake]

Here is a pic I just took. Definately a rose and crown. The rose looks very much like the one on the 1/2 penny solomon posted.
Grubby

[ole.Grubstake]

Looks like the same rose as on this spoon I recovered from on of my wreck sites. Coins are mostly 1600's from this site also. Do you know anything about this pewter spoon Solomon?
Grubby

[Solomon]

Though I have made extensive enquiries on this, none have resulted in any information.

First, I am not sure what type of spoon this is.

Next, I would not hazard a guess as to its country of origin.

Lastly, the mark. Silversmiths of the city of Norwich used the crown and rose together as a mark during the mid-17h century. So may other towns and cities.

The design of the crown does not look English to me, but as I said, I have no firm evidence.

If I do find something useful, I will report.

Solomon

[Bart]

Hi Grubby;

How about a pic of the whole object, and measurements. You may want to try sending a query with all the data to Butterfield's, Sotheby's, or Christie's for identification. I have a similar looking ladle for pouring molten lead into a bullet mold, it came with the lead smelter.

From what I have seen, reference was made to bowl hallmarked spoons for the 15th, 16th, and 17th century. The Ebay link below is very similar to yours piece, but the pics are so bad that you can't see the hallmark.

"This is a 17th century pewter spoon. There is a nice Tudor Rose hallmark in the bowl. It measures 6 1/2" long. Some typical scratches and dings. Buyer pays $7.50 priority airmail postage from Europe."

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140061749491&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX_Stores&refitem=140098238975&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget

This link is to 17th cent. German hallmarks, none appeared remotely like yours, but they have a forum that offers identification help.

http://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks_b1884.html

- Bart

[ole.Grubstake]

Hi John I got your email. I need to tell you that the rose in the crown of the spoon is the exact rose that is pictured on the 1/2 penny. It has the same little round marks between the petals on the edge and the petals are exactly the same. The center is slightly different but basically the same. When I saw the 1/2 penny I was reminded of my spoon find because of the rose even though the rose is in a crown on the spoon. Hope you can find out something for me. I just assumed it was a Tudor emblem because of the rose and crown. Take care. Hope all is well with you. I am preparing to head for the Caribbean in a month and then will be back and then off to the Caribbean June 10th. Doc has been a huge help. I hope he and I will be drinking grog and swapping lies this summer in the warmth. Best to you.
Grubby

[ole.Grubstake]

oooops! Upon closer inspection of the rose I see only one circle of petals and in the crown are the letters M K. Hope this helps you. I got a feedback that this could be Dutch?? From a dutch East India Ship. Guess these were a common spoon that the sailors used on them. I really feel stupid for missing the letters.
Grubby

[Diving Doc]

Grubby,

Is it possible to get a better shot of the design?
It might take a bit of setting up but I for one would really like to take a closer look.
Thanks,
Doc

[Solomon]

After further research, the spoon appears to me to be of pewter. The crown and rose may be the maker's symbol. Similar marks were used by makers of pewter in France and Holland, as well as in Scotland and England. I have found a similar  symbol used in the late 17th-century in London.

Here is a Dutch slip top spoon circa 1660:


This is probably as close as I am going to get.

Solomon

[Diving Doc]

Solomon,
Very nice piece of work indeed!
Cheers,
Doc

[ole.Grubstake]

You amaze me Solomon. Thank you so much. That is the exact same spoon I have. I find that incredible. How did you find that. Great picture of the spoon. The handle is the exact same dimension and I see the emblem in the same spot. Now the mystery. I have found a few dutch coins with the other predominately spanish coins at the sites. One is dated 1589. The other go into the 1600's. This is the same time frame as the spoon. You have been a huge help. Now for my next question? Did the dutch east India ships ever travel the Pacific via the coast of the US down through South America and around the horn on the way home. Or did the got the Africa route back home from the Phillipines? I know the Manilla galleons did but have never heard of the East India ships traveling the same route?Thankyou for the I.D.
Grubby

[Solomon]

Thanks for that, Grubby!

In this period, Spain ruled what were known as the Spanish Netherlands.


The map corresponds to the following provinces:

1. The county of Artois
2. the county of Flanders (including the burgraviates of Lille, Douai, Orchies and the bishopric of Tournai)
3. the county of Mechelen
4 the county of Namur
5. the county of Hainaut
6. the county of Zeeland
7. the county of Holland
8. the duchy of Brabant (including the margraviate of Antwerp, the counties of Leuven and of Brussels and the advocacy of the abbey of Nivelles and of Gembloux)
9. the duchy of Limburg (including the counties of Dalhem and of Valkenburg and the lordship of Herzogenrath)
10. the Duchy of Luxemburg
11. the prince-bishopric, later lordship of Utrecht
12. the lordship of West-Frisia
13. the duchy of Guelders and the county of Zutphen
14. the lordships of Groningen
15. the Ommelanden
16. lordship of Drenthe, Lingen, Wedde and Westerwolde
17. the lordship of Overijssel

Philip II and the rebellion of Dutch Protestants
Charles V's son Philip II, a devout Catholic, took over Spain and the Netherlands from his father in 1556. Philip II married Mary Tudor, the Catholic queen of England, but he spent little time in England and did not produce a hoped-for Catholic heir. Philip persuaded Mary to join in a war with France that leaded to her losing Calais - England's last stonghold on the Continent.

By this time, there were many Protestants in the Netherlands. Like Louis XIV, Philip II believed it was his duty as a king "appointed by God" to fight for the Catholic church. Backed by the zeal of the Jesuits and the Spanish Inquisition, his savage repression of Protestants soon led to a rebellion that disrupted the Spanish empire in the Netherlands.

Bankrupted by the cost of keeping armies in the Low Countries, the Spanish Treasury stopped paying the troops in 1575. By 1577, Dutch Protestants led by William of Orange governed virtually all the Netherlands, and demanded freedom of worship. This was too much for Philip, who raised money to send his nephew the Duke of Parma with a powerful army to regain control. Back to top

In 1581 the Parma's 'Army of Flanders' started a plan to capture the rebel towns one-by-one. These were professional troops, the best in Europe. The southern provinces were soon subdued - the loyal Catholic leaders of the French-speaking towns had been uneasy allies with the Dutch protestants.

By 1585, Parma had captured the key port of Antwerp, and driven the Dutch rebels back to their northern strongholds. Their situation was desperate and morale low - Queen Elizabeth sent English troops to rescue them from collapse.

This angered Philip II, who sent the Spanish Armada in 1588 to escort the Duke of Parma's army across the North Sea to invade England and put a friendly Catholic on the English throne. Driven off at the sea battle of Gravelines, the Armada failed. The English and Dutch gained new confidence in attacking the Spanish at sea around the world. Spain did not agree to a truce until 1609 - and did not recognise the Dutch Republic until 1648.


Louis XIV captured much of Spanish Flanders - in 1670, he reached the southern parts of Holland. The peace treaty in 1713 left Flanders divided by an artificial border.

Prosperity of the remaining provinces
While religious fighting continued and the Thirty Years' War (1618-48) left much of Germany in ruins, the loyal Catholic provinces in the Low Countries accepted firm Spanish rule and enjoyed a period of prosperity.

Many churches were built, and poured money into commissions for religious art. Flemish artists passed easily between Holland and the Spanish Netherlands [see Flemish Art and religion]. Spanish governors gave charters empowering Flemish towns to levy taxes, hold markets, and control traders; invested in draining marshes, new canals and projects like the Exchange in Lille - the Vieille Bourse (1652) and the large squares in Arras
 
The Dutch artefacts are therefore likely to have been owned by the Spanish.

Solomon

[Jesus of Lubeck]

Hello Grubstake,

I would like to second the opinion that the metal appears to be pewter and the hallmark is a Crowned Rose.  Are you able give your readers the identity of the two letters that appear within the hallmark?

I would hazard a guess that this hallmark is from the last half of the 18th century.  be advised that while the iconography indicates England (perhaps London), there existed a major industry in Europe and the fledgling United States in forging London hallmarks on pewter items; English pewter in general and London pewter in particular held a very high reputation for quality during this period.  As world trade constricted during the onset of the Napoleonic Wars, pewterers in the United States and continental Europe often made their pewter wares appear to have been assayed in England by appropriating the Crown and Rose hallmark.  Again the initials might be of further service in identifying the provenance of the object.

I also would second the observation that the context of the pewter ladle within its assemblage of associated artifacts may be a deciding factor whether the pewter is of British origin or is being made to appear British in origin.  I would not rule out a New England pewterer making objects for export if there are several such like items.  If this is but a single pewter item, it might represent equipment associated with the ship's mess and therefor perhaps an authentic piece of English pewter.

I would say that you are onto a very interesting site.

Fair Winds and Following Seas

David Pelfrey