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History's Hinge - 'Ain Jalut

[Sovereign]

...I will  let you know when the book comes out and the possible movie

Better the pen out! I look forward to this.

[Tayopa]

Cactus,  I first had contact with Adrian when he found out that I had found Tayopa.   He generously sent me his book on Tayopa, " Jesuit Gold".  When I asked him how much I owed him, he never aswered me, nor has he answered any of my em's to date ??  I have no idea where he is or what he is doing, nor why he will not  answer me.

Tropical Tramp.

[Tayopa]

Gentemen:  I see that  the Administration has posted in "Jesuits in America", no.
26,   listing  "Seville Archives", which incudes  a large no of my past posts on Tayopa from Treasure Net

Click on  Seville Archives, it will take you there...

Tropical  Tramp

[cactusjumper]

Here is something that was posted in another forum:


[In 1910 a Mexican by the name of Marcos Peralta appeared at the Monte Cristo mine operated by the Dia Claro Mining Company on a tributary of the Yaqui River in eastern sonora. He thought he had some information that would interest mining men. He was not mistaken.
According to his story, while he was riding by a ruined house several months before, he heard groans. Halting to investigate, he found a very old man, sick and starved. He took him home and with the help of his wife nursed him to recovery.
When the old man was strong enough to be about, he said, "I can never repay you for your kindness, but I will give you something that may be of value."
Thereupon he untied a buckskin string from his neck and drew out from under his shirt a buckskin bag. He opened the bag and took from it a sheet of dirty, frazzled paper on which, however, the details of a map could still be made out.
"When I was but eighteen years old," the old man explained, " I became caretaker for a church. It was an ancient church, built by the first Spaniards who came into the Sierra Madre. The padres were good to me, and one of them taught me to read and write. As soon as I began working in the church, I saw how the balcony was ornamented with wrought silver. Then I learned that more silver-much silver-was concealed in the church vault. I was sworn to secrecy and I kept the secret, but I could not keep from wondering where all this silver came from.
One day I was cleaning out the chests and cabinets in the sacristy. They were full of records, very old, about births, baptisms, and the like, and because I had learned to read I often stopped to look into them. Then I came to a document different from all the others. It set down so many ingots of gold delivered, so many silver bars delivered. It gave the names of the masters of the pack trains who brought this wealth, also the dates. Also put down was where the metals came from. The place was Tayopa, and there was a clear map to Tayopa."

While this story has nothing to do with the LDM, it may have something to do with another story of treasure in the Superstitions. Some will see a possible connection, others will not. It seems we may need another story to bring a glimmer of the truth of a Peralta connection here. "from the mouths of two....."

Is there another "Peralta" hidden in the legends of Tayopa? Not exactly.

There is another story. It ends with this: "Now you understand" he said, "Why it is I do not go and possess any of the Tayopa money. Also you will understand why I do not tell you the name of the hacienda south of Dolores. And listen! My directions are not precise. And Don Miguel - may his soul rest in peace with the Mother of Jesus! - had another name.
Yet I have told the truth."

Could "someone" have brought the treasure of Tayopa to the Superstitions?

cj

[Gollum]

Hey CJ,

We know one thing for certain from known Peralta History; The Peraltas had some very rich Silver Mines in eastern Sonora in the early 1800s. I believe that they were mostly played out by the mid 1800s (that's why they supposedly risked going North into the Supers).

Best,

Mike

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"I would say that these are ample evidence of jesuit Mining."

I assume you folks have researched Father Kino extensively, and know that there is a valid reason for silver bars with his name on them, that has nothing to do with his being involved in mining.

Is there a period of time where you believe he had the time to be running a  mining operation?  The records of the man are pretty extensive.  Even his private letters are part of written history.

So far, I have yet to see anything that leads me to believe that Father Kino was ever part of the "nuts and bolts" of New World mining.

cj

[Gollum]

cactusjumper link=topic=189.msg2165#msg2165 date=1160591244]
Mike,

"I would say that these are ample evidence of jesuit Mining."

I assume you folks have researched Father Kino extensively, and know that there is a valid reason for silver bars with his name on them, that has nothing to do with his being involved in mining.

Is there a period of time where you believe he had the time to be running a  mining operation?  The records of the man are pretty extensive.  Even his private letters are part of written history.

So far, I have yet to see anything that leads me to believe that Father Kino was ever part of the "nuts and bolts" of New World mining.

cj

Hey CJ,

The reason those bars had his name on them, was because he was the head of all the Jesuits in Primeria Alta during the time period on them (1697). He also founded the missions, whose mines produced those bars (San Xavier del Bac and Tumacacori. The bars came from one of the Tumacacori Mines).

While he spent most of his time exploring the region, he was still in charge of ALL Jesuit Operations in Primeria Alta. Just like all Spanish Coinage displayed the current Kings, I guess it was a sort of tribute to the boss.

Best,

Mike

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I appreciate your replies.

As you know, I started searching for Jesuit treasure a little over forty years ago.  I read every book that dealt with Jesuit treasure and mining.  It has always been my habit, to learn both sides of every topic....as best I could.

The only way to learn both sides of the Jesuit treasure legends, was to read as much as I could about them.  Anyone who has done the same research, would know how Father Kino's name came to be on that silver bar.

You would also know how the Jesuit's earned their money.  In some cases they were very good at it, and in others, abject failures.  Like any good business, one of the most important keys was.... location, location, location.

At one time, I could argue your position as well....or better than you can.  The stories of treasure really caught hold in Mexico City with the Jesuit expulsion.  There was no treasure found then, when they really had the best chance, and it is unlikely any will be found today.

To understand how poor your chances are, you would have to be willing to lower yourself into a pool of raw sewage, in order to know you have the right mind set.  If you fell into the mess, and came out looking for Jesuit treasure, you might have a chance.  Those who did that and were there at the time of the expulsion, found nothing.

I assume that you do know how the Jesuit's made money, other than their many mines.  If you know that, you know why Father Kino's name might turn up on a bar of silver.

cj

[Gollum]

Hey CJ,

I just emailed my guy at the Jesuit Archives in Rome (right by the Vatican's Secret Archives on the Borgo Santo Spirito).

I had been going over our correspondences from the last year or so, and I found an interesting slip up from him. I can't believe that I didn't catch it before.

After we had gotten pretty familiar, I told him about the probability of the Jesuits in the new World sending maps Rome rather than the King of Spain. The email was much longer and we talked about a lot of different things, but here are the lines I missed:

"The maps you are asking for are not with us."

Tells me that there ARE maps of this nature SOMEWHERE!

"There are some letters about mines for this period which you can consult. You will have to come to the Archives for this research. I can then help you. "

A very nice guy. An American who is the Archive Secretary for the Society of Jesus in Rome.

I just made him the offer today. I asked if the Church had any interest in recovering any of the cached gold or silver left behind in 1767. Waiting to hear back!

Best,

Mike

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

You could be right, but it seems like you are reading something into his answer that you want to find.  He said the polite thing, rather than telling you there were no such maps......anywhere.

I believe I have seen the letters.  If so, they are not what you think they are.   If I were you,
I would go anyway.  Sounds like a great adventure.

The question is:  Why would you find Father Kino's name on a bar of silver?

cj

[Diving Doc]

The question is:  Why would you find Father Kino's name on a bar of silver?

CJ, I imagine if the bar is legit that Kino's name was so well known that it would be like a pedigree to put it on a bar, you know, like a jeweler's 14kt stamp? Something like that.

Doc

[cactusjumper]

Doc,

The main source of revenue for the Jesuits was cattle and crops.  The successful missions had large herds and good land for planting.  They were the primary food suppliers for the miners,  the Indians who did the work for them and their less fortunate brothers.

They were paid with bars of silver, for the most part, exactly like those in Mike's picture.  Father Kino's name on the bar had nothing to do with its purity but showed who the mine owners were paying with that particular bar.  I understand that's not a very exciting explanation, but I believe it's accurate.

With the connections you folks have, you should have no problem confirming that.

cj

[Tayopa]

HI Gentlemen:  I was going to post this in the Jesuit posts, but with the present trend I decided that here was best.

These are  a few pages from the of history as written by Doctor Francisco Pradeau.  This particular section only covers the Mission of Baroyeca.

 It shows how the resident Priest,  found the richest vein of what turned out to be a  rich strike and it's subsequent life.  It explains how he used the money for both the Church and the people  -  "no-one was poor while he doled out the money

So we now have another document that states that the priests did indeed mine.

Notice especially where it lists the  trappings of the Church.

Tropical  Tramp

If You wish, I will post the original Spanish document.

[Gollum]

Come on CJ,

I never said anything about it's purity. Only that this was cast by the Church, not Spanish miners. Do you really think they would go to all the trouble to make a separate mold to cast silver bars especially for the Jesuits? I don't think so. Also, they wouldn't have cast them with all the Jesuit iconography. The Spanish miners would only have cast their gold and silver in one or two fashions, and would have paid for their supplies with those ingots.

I have seen your same argument in an article in a book. The article was by a US Jesuit Priest. I don't remember the entire article, but much of what he stated in it, was not accurate.

You write like the Jesuits didn't mine. I could walk you into the Opata Mine (a silver mine owned by the Tumacacori Mission). It's played out, and is nothing but a big hole in the ground now.  I'm not certain, but I believe that 4-6 of the eight Tumacacori Mines have been uncovered. You can never know for sure, because people tend to keep finding that sort of thing a secret.

Best,

Mike

[Tayopa]

Continuation of the pictures of the Mission at BAROYECA