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History's Hinge - 'Ain Jalut

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

My post was in reply to "Doc".

Let's assume you are correct.  What you are saying is that,  Father Kino discovered and worked rich mines in the New World, and than had his name placed on the evidence that he was breaking the King's Law.  Is that what you are saying?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

T.T.,

Interesting post.

Is it your contention, that the "Broyeca Church", as described, was built in the time of the Jesuits?  Do you also believe that "Brother Valdez" was a Jesuit?  Is it possible that the pages you have quoted are "out of context"?

To understand the history of Broyeca, you have to know the history of Spanish mining.  Broyeca was established in 1701, as a mining town.  It was never as important as Alamos, which received it's Mission in 1683.

The area was flooded with miners, soldiers and Spanish citizens.  Because mining was "against the law" for Jesuits, they would never have been able to work a mine in the midst of those they would be stealing it from.

The pictures you have presented are from the wrong era, and the buildings were not constructed by the Jesuits.  Perhaps a few more pages would have cleared this up for you.

On the other hand......Your conclusions could be perfectly correct, and I could be completely wrong.  Quien sabe?

cj

[Gollum]

Hey CJ,

You mistake me again. I doubt that Kino ever discovered or worked ANY mines. He explored and established missions. The Padres that ran the missions were the ones who administered their mines. The only reason for Kino's name to be on the ingots would be as a tribute to him from the Priests he managed (the same way the Spanish put the likeness of the Kings on all their coinage).

This is the way I believe things happened: The Spanish treated the Indios like slaves. Kept them just well enough to work in the mines. Local Indians knew all sorts of secret vein and ledge locations. Would they reveal them to their Spanish slave masters, or the Jesuit priests who fed and clothed them, and treated them well. The Jesuits also spoke for God. The Spanish only spoke for the King (a mere human).

About the breaking of the King's law: The Jesuits believed that God's Law was above the King's law. They believed that anything they mined was better served being given to the Church rather than the King of Spain. Kino's name being on some silver bars wouldn't matter that much. Nobody was supposed to have seen that but the Church in Rome. I would believe that Kino purposefully had his name cast into the ingots so the Church in Rome would know where(who) it came from.

Best,

Mike

[Gollum]

Hey Vieja Tayopa,

I can see a bit of a problem with that story. Valdez could not have been a Jesuit. He must have been a Franciscan. All the Jesuits were rounded up and shipped off in 1767. Since the article says that Valdez was promoted in 1768, that meant he survived the Jesuit Expulsion.  I think the only way that could have happened is if he was a Franciscan.

Please let me know.

Best,

mike

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

There are plenty of sources for your Spanish/Indian/slave statements.  Can you provide a single source for the information contained in the rest of your post?

How do you know the mine you cite, is the "Opata"?

As for your question to Tayopa, I believe that was what I was asking him.  The answer also has some bearing on the "wealth" of the church he describes.

cj

[Bart]

Question.. If Kino was already the head man, Rome's top man in the New World, and the mining was supposed to be a secret/ illegal, why would he need his name on the ingots? Rome already knew he was head honcho.

- Bart

[Gollum]

Come on Bart,

That was a completely non-fact-based guess! But I will still answer your question! Kino was the Big Man in Primeria Alta, not the New World! And certainly not the entire world! Do you realize how much gold and silver was being shipped to Rome in the late 17th century, from all over the known world? The treasure coming from the Province of Primeria Alta was only a tiny bit.

Best,

Mike

[Tayopa]

Gents-men,  It is obvious that he  was a  Franciscan, since  he took over the missions  a year after the Jesuits were arrested and expelled.  However, the mission church was first built in the Jesuit period, 1737.

Regarding the importance between Alamos and Baroyeca, Baroyeca was the seat of the governor's residence, not Alamos, in fact Alamos never was a governmental seat. It did have a mint though.  See the accompanying picture of an Alamos 8 Reales Coin

Notice the  attitude of the priests regarding the treatment of the Indians, a bit at odds with  normal views.

As for mining, the Northern council allowed the priests to mine under certain conditions, in fact they did not have to even register them.    I still do not see exactly how they reconciled this with the Kings wishes, but they did.  I guess having deep, easily available pockets full of  gold and silver helps.

The present physical state of the church and buildings is almost just blobs of dissolved Adobe. no wall is now over 3 ft high, the tower still stands, in a manner of speaking.

Ask away my friends.

Tropical Tramp

[Tayopa]

HI then next page

[Diving Doc]

Well, the Bee Keeper's card does give one a good idea of the size doesn't it?

Doc

[Tayopa]

Gentelmen:  an interesting side note on the Governor abandoning Baroyeca and it's people to the Indians was that he took the entire garrison to Alamos with him as a personal escort leaving Baroyeca essentially undefended.

.  The Indians quickly over came the limited resistance and captured the town.   One report has it that they killed all grown males, and were ready to torture the priest for information as to where the missing riches of Baroyeca were, this is when the return of the  chiefs saved the survivors. 

When they had taken the town they found nothing, it appears that the people had hidden everything in  a small tunnel on the side of the arroyo then  carefully covered it up.  To this day it has never been found.  Unlike the Apache  etc. these Indians knew the value of Gold and Silver since they worked in the ranches and mines and knew what it could buy.

When the Governor arrived in Alamos he took up residence for a while, then when he heard that Baroyeca had fallen,  he prepared to flee futher south.  This is when the women of Alamos made their famous "lie down strike " against him by surrounding his residence and lying down in the street in ranks so that he could not leave without running over some of them.  This would have been political suicide as well as murder, so he was forced to remain in Alamos and commit his troops to the fight for survival of Alamos.

As the Indians approached, now numbering an estimated 10,000, the town prepared for the fight.  All of the women and and children and excess powder were placed inside of the church with an older crippled man in charge with orders to blow the Church up if the Indians won the battle.

The main battle took place approx. 15 miles west of Alamos on a flat plain,  the Spaniards won.  What is not readily understood, is how the Spaniards with inferior numbers, could win against an overwhelming Indian force almost everytime.   It was simply superior tactics.  The Spanish formed the old Roman square of say 50 men per side, so only that number of Indians could at tact them at any given time.  This meant that the Spanish were only fighting  on  a one to one basis with the attackers being so crowded in trying to reach the Spaniards, that they impeded their individual fighting ability  - they just plain got in each others way.  With the steel and leather armor, plus superior weapons and discipline,  the Spanish were essentially reduced to simply cutting hay in effect.

I have often thought about visiting that battle ground with a detector, but manana, it is  too hot today or whatever sigh.?

Tropical Tramp

p.s. side note,  On the eastern  side of Alamos they have a high spot which served as a lookout point.   From there they could see some  20 30 miles to the East and West.  They constructed a small fort with a bell which was to be rung upon sighting any hostlie forces.  It is still called the "Cerro de la Campana'.?

The Governor was subsequently demoted.  The home where he stayed is still called the  Governor's mansion.   It has been restored by an American who now lives there.

[Diving Doc]

Jose,
Please keep up the history. This is more authentic intel on the subject than I have ever seen in one place before.
Cheers,
Doc

[cactusjumper]

T.T.,

That was a wonderful walk down history lane.  I am convinced......Not sure of what, but I am convinced.

Earlier you asked us to note "the trappings of the church".  You quoted "how the resident priest found the richest vein...", and "how he used the money for both the church and people...".  As this all took place after the Jesuit expulsion, I am at a loss to understand how it bolsters the argument for Jesuit mining.

Baroyeca was abandoned in 1772, and not repopulated until the mid-1800s.  The church and trappings you describe were from that period.

I only dabble in history, unlike some of the obvious scholars here, so any enlightenment is appreciated.

Thanks,

cj

[cactusjumper]

It is possible that the Jesuits expunged every mention of their involvement in mining, but the task would be prodigious.  Official reports, diaries, private correspondence, including the archives in Spain and Mexico.

The fact is:  The Jesuit income was derived primarily from agriculture.  4/5 of their money was from that source alone.  Most of the rest came from livestock sales.

"Wandering Peoples......" by, Cynthia Radding is a pretty good source for the history of Northwestern Mexico, 1700-1850.  It is possible that every historian has been fooled by the Jesuits, but it does not seem likely.

cj

[Tayopa]

Good morning my friend CJ.  It is easy to become confused until one can separate the Mission priests from the Professional  or Comercial ones.

All Jesuits were the phd's of their times.  The mission ones wore the conventional clothing, the comercial ones did NOT!   They were a secret Society in themselves and carefully avoided any connecion with the Sociey in  so far as the public was concerned.   All records of their movements and activities were kept in separate files.  Even today most of the  lesser Jesuits do not know of their existance, but they are well and still active.

If You had enough influence and pull , you might be able to find some of those files,  however I sincerely doubt that they would let you publish any of the data contained in them.

Tayopa figured heavily in their plans for the take over of the Americas, yet history and mining records are conspicous in the lack of factual data. One can presume from this that it never existed, but, the presence of the Altar hand bell for Tayopa etc., proves otherwise.

I am enclosing a few more pages on the history of Baroyeca and data on the treatment by the Spanish of the Indians, which explains why they revolted.  this is from Tayopa gold, but  backed up by other sources..

Tropical Tramp

[cactusjumper]

T.T.,

Good afternoon.

"Good morning my friend CJ.  It is easy to become confused until one can separate the Mission priests from the Professional  or Comercial ones.

All Jesuits were the phd's of their times.  The mission ones wore the conventional clothing, the comercial ones did NOT!   They were a secret Society in themselves and carefully avoided any connecion with the Sociey in  so far as the public was concerned.   All records of their movements and activities were kept in separate files.  Even today most of the  lesser Jesuits do not know of their existance, but they are well and still active.

If You had enough influence and pull , you might be able to find some of those files,  however I sincerely doubt that they would let you publish any of the data contained in them.

Tayopa figured heavily in their plans for the take over of the Americas, yet history and mining records are conspicous in the lack of factual data. One can presume from this that it never existed, but, the presence of the Altar hand bell for Tayopa etc., proves otherwise."

The obvious question here is:  How did you come by this knowledge, and why are you being allowed to "publish" it here?  Can you name a single "Professional or Comercial" Jesuit from the time period we are discussing?  If not.....How do you know they existed?  Apparently you are using professional and commercial in a manner which would be somewhat different than the fact that the Jesuits were both.

At this point, after a great deal of historical "words", the only proof you have offered for Jesuit mining is one passage dealing with Franciscans and the period after the Jesuit expulsion.

Since the "lesser Jesuits" have no idea that this "Secret society" exists now, or ever for that matter, can we assume you are or were one of the upper echelon Jesuits?

"If You had enough influence and pull , you might be able to find some of those files,  however I sincerely doubt that they would let you publish any of the data contained in them."

Since you have capitalized the "Y"  in "You", are we to assume that "You" do have the necessary "influence and pull"?


cj