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History's Hinge - 'Ain Jalut

[cactusjumper]

T.T.,

"Yes, records do exist but where, and how to access them?"

If you don't know "where" and you don't know to "access them", how can you know they exist?  Seems like a fair question.

cj

[Tayopa]

Bart
The Jesuits are keeping the mining documents from themselves while searching for the mines?[/i] Hmmmm.... (scratching head). It is also entirely possible that Jesuits are NOT actively involved in searching for Tayopa today. One could surmise that were they seeking today, they would have (virtually) unlimited resources at their disposal
**************
Agreed in essence, but----who ever suggested that they were keeping the documents from the "Selected"'  group?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 unlike RT,   -xxx-       being as smart and sneaky as they are said to be,
******************
Heheheh I love this, I could easily take it out of context, but I do know what you meant   hheheheh.   (appol).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
would have found the mines long before RT did
.*************
Agreed, they tried, but failed on Tayopa.  who know on other things..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Buy hey, anything's possible. I am sure RT has a lot of documentation backing his claims that  he cannot make public at this time, so time will tell.
***********
 You are correct.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
a. - "Extractive metallurgy is the practice of separating metals from their ore, and refining them into a pure metal.  - Wikipedia." Perhaps the metallurgy they taught was 'theoretical'  metallurgy? It appears from this that it is common knowledge that they were involved in S. A. mining. I won't even comment of the rest of the 'history'.   As far as I am concerned, the question of Jesuits being involved in mining is settled, though not just from this one source.
 **********

Agreed again

Tropical Tramp

[Tayopa]

=cactusjumper
"Yes, records do exist but where, and how to access them?"

If you don't know "where" and you don't know to "access them", how can you know they exist?  Seems like a fair question.
**********

It certainly is, but similar to the true papers on the Kennedy assassination,  not the data  given to the public.  Only the elite have access, and they aren't talking.  How would either you  or I access them? 

Tropical Tramp

[/quote]

[Tayopa]

Keep them coming gentlemen.  These are articulate and correct questions.

Tropical Tramp

[cactusjumper]

T.T.,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A letter does not "Cibola" make.
**********

True, but Life magazine, and I believe the Smithsonian , did investigate the Actual Cibloa.  It is in northeastern Sinaloa.   They found 7 pueblos which had an immense no of  fugures, and paintings of Buffalo.   They also found large depositories  of Pyrites which the  people were painting their  walls with.  This naturally, to an untrained eye, appears to be  Gold.  It is now a Mexican Archaeological preserve  site.  You can visit but not take.

Obviously the original story was not a total fabrication, but the location was.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The legend of "Cibola and Quivira", two of the "Seven Cities of Gold", originated around 1150 when the Moors conquered Merida, Spain.  Seven bishops were said to have fled the city, taking with them "sacred religious relics".

Years later the rumor started that the seven bishops had founded the "Seven Cities of Gold" in a place unknown to the people.  What they did know was that the cities were in the distant west and very rich.  Those riches were in the form of "gold and precious stones".

That legend was what really motivated the Spanish expedition of Coronado.

While Coronado did find seven Pueblos consisting of mud construction, to now say they were the seven cities of the original legend is a bit of a stretch.  With all due respect to Time and the Smithsonian, I believe "Cibola" is still well hidden from us all.

A mud city named "Cibola" by the Spanish, does not "Cibola" (the legend) make.

A really nice book which gives a great deal of historical "facts" is, "Cities of Gold" by Douglas Preston.  It's a great read.

cj

[Tayopa]

For those so inclined here is a partial listing of Tayopa articles in both popular magazines and articles in gneral.  Father Charles Polzer also has a bit to say about Jesuit Activities.

Tropicsl Tramp

[Tayopa]

cactusjumper ,
While Coronado did find seven Pueblos consisting of mud construction, to now say they were the seven cities of the original legend is a bit of a stretch.  With all due respect to Time and the Smithsonian, I believe "Cibola" is still well hidden from us all.
**************
Not True, for Cibola itself , come to Mexico and I will take you there. It is approx. 2 days by mule each way, NO accomadations.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A really nice book which gives a great deal of historical "facts" is, "Cities of Gold" by Douglas Preston.  It's a great read.
**************
Thanks, I will try to find it.

Tropical Tramp

[Bart]

Here it is S

Bart, would you please post the url for this:
a pro- Jesuit site with a bit about Jesuit history
I would like to make enquiries. My Google topic was "ancient Jesuits".

Solomon

Here it is Sol, and another below it that you would be interested in seeing, I am sure. Not sure if it is a history re-write attempt or what.
http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/sjhist.htm




_ Bart

[Bart]

"The Jesuits are keeping the mining documents from themselves while searching for the mines?[/i] Hmmmm.... (scratching head). It is also entirely possible that Jesuits are NOT actively involved in searching for Tayopa today. One could surmise that were they seeking today, they would have (virtually) unlimited resources at their disposal
**************
Agreed in essence, but----who ever suggested that they were keeping the documents from the "Selected"'  group?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 unlike RT,   -xxx-       being as smart and sneaky as they are said to be,
******************
Heheheh I love this, I could easily take it out of context, but I do know what you meant   hheheheh.   (appol).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
would have found the mines long before RT did
.*************
Agreed, they tried, but failed on Tayopa.  who know on other things.."

I am saying this, IF the Jesuits have records relating to the location of Tayopa, and they did or are actively seeking Tayopa's location, why haven't they found it?

What evidence can be presented to show that Jesuits are actively seeking Tayopa?

If they did seek, and have failed as you say, then the records are no good for the pupose of locating Tayopa, isn't that logical? Another possibilty is that they have found it and emptied it out,  perhaps centuries ago.  Only you RT, can answer that if you have opened what you have found. Or you will be able to answer that when you do open it.

In a way, it is unfair to the rest of us here to make these claims re: Jesuits when you are unable to fully document/ prove your claims. All we can do is speculate, and search for something that may not be there, ie: records. Your hands are tied, and we're shooting in the dark RT. What needs to be done for your book to come out? Can we help in any way? It is still a very interesting discussion though.

- Bart

[cactusjumper]

"That Jesuits take their special vow of obedience to the pope quite seriously is evident from their immediate compliance with distasteful papal edicts. Clement XIV's Suppression is one example. Another occurred earlier in 1590 when Pope Sixtus V wanted to exclude Jesus from the official name of the Society. Jesuits immediately complied and offered alternate names but Sixtus died unexpectedly before his wish could be carried out. Included among these occasional papal intrusions in the Society's governance was Pope John Paul II's appointment of a delegate to govern the Society a decade ago during Superior General Arrupe's debilitating illness. So edified was Pope John Paul at the Society's immediate compliance that he later lavished extraordinary praise on the Jesuit Order."

In reading accounts of the expulsion, such as, "Ducrue's Account of the Expulsion", the answer to the Jesuit's "ompliance" with the kings orders, seem clear. 

cj

[Solomon]

Here it is Sol, and another below it that you would be interested in seeing, I am sure. Not sure if it is a history re-write attempt or what.
http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/sjhist.htm




_ Bart

Thanks for those, Bart. The second link, to that long series of 'history' videos, I have already examined and found to be wanting. The Jesuit link: I am downloading the website now, so I can examine the contents offline.

Thanks again!
Solomon

Later:
Done. The offline search revealed nothing on mining. Is there an url direct to the reference, Bart?
I have emailed the university on this.

[cactusjumper]

T.T.,

Most of the writers you offered for "proof" that something was there, would be considered a bit colorful, by most standards.

One, Henry Ossian Flipper, was actually "colored".....as opposed to just colorful.  He wrote a really wonderful autobiography titled:  "The Colored Cadet at West Point".

On page xxxvi, we are given this:

[Flipper also contributed to southwestern folklore, writing extensively about the lost silver mine of Tayopa in northern Mexico. In perhaps one of the strangest episodes of his career, mining magnates William Randolph Hearst and William Cornell Greene, convinced that he was the investigator most likely to find Tayopa, sent Flipper to the Archivo General de las Indias in Seville, Spain, in 1911 to research the location of the fabled mine. The archives yielded unsatisfactory results, prompting Flipper to conclude, "The only definite thing that all my researches in Spain netted was a traveling direction."]

Another on your list is, J. Frank Dobie.  Starting on page 204 of "Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver", Dobie has this to say:

["The first time I heard of Tayopa", wrote Flipper, "was in 1889.  At that date I had not the remotest interest in the subject.  I was down in Sonora surveying public land under a concession held by General Francisco Olivares.  One day while I was in Hermosillo working on some maps, a Spaniard came into the office and handed a bulky document to Jesus Santa Cruz, a lawyer engaged by General Olivares.  The document lay about the office for several days and all of us read it.  It was written on paper of foolscap size and was signed by three priests.  Theri names were subsequently verified by General Olivares, in Mexico City, as belonging to Jesuits important in early Spanish colonial history.  Santa Cruz finally sent out a fruitless expedition to try to locate Tayopa.  He is long since dead.
"According to this document, the Tayopa mines at the time of the great Indian uprising of 1646 had not exported any silver for years, though they had been in bonanza from 1632.  When the Indians rose up throughout the Sierra Madre, and immense amount of bullion must have been in storage at Tayopa.  It is not unlikely that about this time the Jesuit owners, with Indian labor, covered up their mineral workings;  all on the grounds may have been killed.  Tayopa seems to have falllen in 1646, though some evidence points to a later date.......]

The "letter" goes on in some length and was sent to "another Tayopa seeker in this country."

Do you find this to be "compelling" evidence of the existance of Jesuit mining at Tayopa?

cj

[Gollum]

Hey CJ,

If you've been following, you will note that the Archives in Seville, are those of the King of Spain. Not of the Church. As the Jesuits kept all their mining information hidden from the King's emmissaries, there would not be any records of Jesuit Mining Operations there.

About J. Frank Dobie; I wouldn't trust a word printed in any of his books.

Also, you have chosen two out of approximately 40 authors. Hardly fair.

Best,

Mike

[cactusjumper]

OK Mike, you choose two and lets see what they have to say.  Do you feel that Flipper was "unfair"?

cj

[Solomon]

Mike:
As the Jesuits kept all their mining information hidden from the King's emmissaries, there would not be any records of Jesuit Mining Operations there.

That assumes that there were such activities. No activities = no record.

Relying on books about things is, as I've said before, an unsafe method to research anything. Always go to the source and if there is no source, it is probably because there is no truth.

Solomon