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History's Hinge - 'Ain Jalut

[Tayopa]

Well well gentlemen: I leave for a bit and what have we ? hehehe

Regarding Flipper-----see posts 1 - 2 - 3 .  the instructions that he found are right on, but extremely difficult to follow up  if one did not have the basic location of Tayopa first.  That country has to be experienced to appreciate just how broken up and rough it actually is.  A miss of a few miles  in 8 days will put you into  a differed barranca complex.

I was in the Ocampo mining office checking records on the 8 th of March.  It was rather late when we left Ocampo and so after an hr of steady climbing out of the Ocampo barranca we crested just about sunset.  We stopped for a break and to admire the fantastic scenery.   As we were relaxing, my wife said  "look, the sun is setting over Tayopa". it was!    Now you know why the setting sun is featured in our Logo.

 Since we were obviously at the crest, we could see out over the many deep barrancas and  mesas between our position and Tayopa on the distant horizon.  It was easily seen that his instructions were too basic to be used to actually search for Tayopa, but usefull for verification.

So another document had been verified  and vice versa.

Incidentally, out poition was on the line drawn between Minaca and Tayopa, slightly south of Ocampo over looking it.

Tropical Tramp

[Tayopa]

Here is the Ocampo letter confirming the visit, sent two weeks after.  If you wish, I will interpret, but what is important, is the legal stamp and date.

Tropical Tramp

[Tayopa]

Gentlemen, an oops.  The original visit was on the 8 th, a  subsequnet one was made on the 21 st to do some reearch on a mining monument that I found later.   This letter was to verify "that" visit, however it does show my presence in the area while the setting Sun data still had a basis.

Tropical Tramp

[cactusjumper]

T.T.,

"So another document had been verified  and vice versa."

The fact that the sun sets in the west, and in the general direction of Tayopa, hardly seems a verification of a document.

What would be nice,  but never forthcoming in these cases, would be the original document/letter.  It would also be helpful if the names of the "three priests" had been recorded by Flipper.

Despite your assurances, there is nothing to take this tale out of the "nice story" category.

Many a prospector has spent his lifetime trying to prove a "story".  On occasion, they succeed.  Lets hope that is the case with my favorite Tayopa searcher.

cj

[Tayopa]

HI my  friend CJ:    Not so, only on the line drawn from Tayopa to Minaca would it set over Tayopa as stated in Flipper's report, exactly as happened.  A few miles one side or the other and it would not.  A few days later and it does not.

There is a face cut into a cliff at Tayopa in bias relief.  Only on a few days a year do the first rays of the rising Sun illuminate it correctly. I was fortunate to accidentally see it, even today the local Indians have never seen it,  nor have I enlightend them.

There is  a cave just below it,  It has  a very interesting story from the Apaches, perhaps later.

The  Priests referred to are  ---
Francisco Villagus Garsana y Orozco,       Miguel Aurona Armendariz ,    Juan Santillana,  &
Felpe Ampara Armenta.

 I presume that there are records available on them, I have never tried since it would merely be guilding the  lily in this case since the data contained was correct and confirmation was not necesary at that stage . 

On the series of documents dug up in the ruins of the old Capilla, they were written /documented by      Filipe Amparo Armenta.       These included many references to Tayopa and her various mines,  including the distancs from the main door of the Capilla (church) to the various mines, plus many other things.

Because of the latter, these letters will not be posted in here until after I have successfully  completed the last phase of Tayopa.

As for proving a story,  not so, not needed,  it is  an accomplished fact , but it is nice to have confirmation in any event, no?

Tropical Tramp

[Gollum]

Mike:
As the Jesuits kept all their mining information hidden from the King's emmissaries, there would not be any records of Jesuit Mining Operations there.

That assumes that there were such activities. No activities = no record.

Relying on books about things is, as I've said before, an unsafe method to research anything. Always go to the source and if there is no source, it is probably because there is no truth.

Solomon

AAAAH, but not always. No record in the official Spanish Archives in Seville.

Like I said to Admin about this very same subject in the Tumacacori Thread: this SEEMS to be one of those cases where we will have to backdoor our way into the truth! As no one will be forthcoming from either the Archivio Segreto at the Vatican, or the Archivio Curia Jesuit (Both in Rome). It would seem we are at a standstill, but not so! The Purisima Concepcion and the Opata Mines have both been found. These were two mines said to not exist, because the Jesuits had no mining operations, but we have photographic evidence of the contents of the Purisima Concepcion from 1938 (approx). Ingots not unlike those found nearby in 1986 (the content of the metal even seems the same 70% gold, 20% silver, 10% various).

As I have stated before, when the Jesuits were expelled from the New World, it is a known fact that the King (Charles III) wanted the initial roundup to be kept a complete secret. Why would that be? What are the possible things the Jesuits could do if they knew what was coming?
1. Run. Where would they run to? The desert? Maybe they would escape via Galveston Bay back to Europe? That doesn't make sense. That's just what Charles wanted to do to them! They were being expelled, not hanged! No use keeping the roundup a secret because of that!
2. Fight. No! The Jesuits didn't have any way to fight the Spanish! Not a chance of that happening, no use keeping the roundup a secret because of that!
3. Hide Something? Seems the logical choice! Seems to me (I think I am pretty reasonable), that the ONLY reason to keep the roundup of Priests a secret would be to catch them before they had a chance to do something. What might that something be? Maybe Charles wanted to make the move on them before they had time to send off or hide the evidence of their mining activities. Sounds logical to me.

See Solomon (and Admin),

I have already pretty much given up hope of getting access (unless that bolt comes out of the blue) to any documentation verifying Jesuit Mining Operations in Primeria Alta. Maybe Father Reddy SJ(Jesuit Archive Secretary) will come through for me, but I don't count on it.

If y'all (I'm from the South) knew the number of Currently Operating silver and Gold Mines in that specific area, you would not doubt that the Jesuits took part in the Precious Metal Fiesta. That is the area that had two Spanish names: "Planchas de Plata" and "Bolas(Bolles?) de Plata"  Planchas de Plata is the term used to describe the place where Silver is formed in nature. Basically, it describes the place of the Silver Motherlode.

Best,

Mike

[Gollum]

Hey Tayopa,

How close are you to Arizpe? I know it is North and West of you, but I just don't know how far. Have you ever been to the Nuestra Senora de la Asuncion de Arizpe Mission?

Mike

[Diving Doc]

I just wonder if the Jesuits were really in league with the French, if some records might be uncovered with regard to their interaction??? Just a thought.
Doc

[Gollum]

I thought it was the Dutch!

Jose! Who were the Jesuits plotting with to overthrow the Spanish? Was it the Frencjh or the Dutch?

Oh, and Doc, I just shot off another email to Father Reddy at the Jesuit Archives, asking him if he knew anything about that subject.

Mike

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

The choice you left out was.....neither.

cj

[Bart]

Sol, Here is the link, followed by what is on the page itself. - Bart

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/sjhist.htm

A Pictorial History of the Jesuits


Five of the eight major rivers of the world were first charted by Jesuit explorers. Two of the statues in Statuary Hall in the Capitol in Washington are Jesuits: Eusebio Kino and Jacques Marquette. A 1978 Brazilian stamp celebrates the Jesuit founding of S?o Paulo. Spanish Jesuits went to Paraguay in 1607, built settlements which lasted from 1607 to 1767 for the indigenous people and taught them how to govern and defend themselves against the Spanish slave traders. They also taught agriculture, architecture, metallurgy, farming, music, ranching and printing. The Guaran? natives of Paraguay were printing books on art, literature as well as school texts in these settlements before the American revolution. This Utopia was suddenly crushed by the influential slave traders who were able to intimidate the Spanish crown into destroying the settlements. King Charles III expelled the Jesuits in 1767 when Paraguay boasted of 57 settlements serving 113,716 indigenous natives. These Jesuit Settlements were called "a triumph of humanity which seems to expiate the cruelties of the first conquerors" by Voltaire - hardly a friend of the Jesuits.

[Solomon]

Bart:
Thanks for that. I had mistakenly searched for mining and mines. I now have all the references on that site to metallurgy, which refer to Jesuit education in Paraguay. This does not provide evidence, of course, for Jesuit mining anywhere, much less in North America.

Solomon

[Gollum]

Mike,

The choice you left out was.....neither.

cj

OF COURSE! The idea of the post was to ask the question, "Why did King Charles III want to keep the roundup of the Jesuit Priests a complete secret?"

He wasn't having them rounded up to be killed. He was only expelling them back to Spain. What you missed was my entire point! WHAT COULD THE JESUIT PRIESTS HAVE DONE, THAT THE KING WOULD WANT THEIR ROUNDUP TO BE KEPT A SECRET?

Your statement of NEITHER serves no purpose in that discussion, but for a moment, let's use your choice:

If the Jesuits were going to do Nothing (or neither of the above choices), what would be the reason for the King to keep their roundup a secret? NONE!

You only further reinforce my point that the only reason for the King to keep the roundup of the Jesuit Priests a secret, was to grab them before they had a chance to do something? What could that something be, other than hiding something. What could that be? THAT'S my point!

Best,

Mike

[Bart]

I agree on the point of evidence, Sol. Here is another avenue or possiblity, from the catholic Encyclopedia itself. In my view, a carefully crafted and coordinated effort exists to carefully avoid mention of the subject of mining in all histories I have seen so far. They may have slipped here, we will see. -

Bart

The churches, mostly three-aisled, built of massive blocks of stone, with a richly-decorated fa?ade, a main door, and several wide entrances, convey an impression of grandeur even as ruins. In the massive belfries, which mostly stood apart from the churches, hung six or even more bells, which latterly were cast in the Reductions (a). The rich interior furnishings would have graced any cathedral. Besides the church, each village had one or more chapels for the dead, in which the corpses were exposed and whence they were taken away, also a churchyard chapel. The cemetery, laid out alongside the church and enclosed by a wall with a pillared hall, was, with its rows of orange trees and its wealth of flowers, truly "a sacred garden of the dead." To the left of the cemetery, isolated and surrounded by a wall, stood the cotiguazu (the big house), which served as an asylum for the widows, who lived there in common; as a reformatory for women; as a home for cripples; and as a common spinning-room. Beyond the village, just at the village limits, stood the chapel of St. Isidore, the ramada or lodging-house for travelling Spaniards, and farther off the tile-kilns, mills, stamping-mills (b), tanneries, and other buildings devoted to industry.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12688b.htm

a. - These are the Jesuit missions this history is referring to. They are in charge of the missions and all under them, including the people and their industry, which the Jesuits are constantly touted for. This reference is to six or more bells cast in the Reductions/ missions.

b. - "Mills and stamping mills".  Wiki defines stamp mill thus: "Stamp mills were use in early paper making for preparing the paper-stuff (pulp), before the invention of the Hollander beater. They were used in mining for breaking ore, and in oil-seed processing for prior to pressing the oil from the milled seeds. Early mills were water powered but mills can be steam, water, or electric powered." What exactly were they stamping? Much printing and book making took place here, were they of vellum or paper? Oro perhaps?

[Bart]

From the same page as my last, but nothing conclusive that directly refers to mining gold or silver ore.  See my next for the denial.

- Bart
B. The Economic System of the Reductions

The other abundant natural resources, choice sorts of wood, aromatic resins, honey bees, and the like, were converted to useful purposes, and attempts were even made, on a small scale, to produce pig-iron.

 Thanks to the exceptional native gifts of the Guaran?s, the abilities necessary for almost all the trades and crafts were soon developed in these people. Some were carpenters, joiners, wood-turners, builders; others blacksmiths, goldsmiths, armourers, bellfounders, masons, sculptors, stone-cutters, tilemakers, house-painters, painters and gilders, shoemakers, tailors, bookbinders, weavers, dyers, bakers, butchers, tanners, instrument-makers, organ-builders, copyists, calligraphers etc. Others again were employed in the powder-mills, tea-mills, corn-mills etc

In 1726 a Spanish procurator of the missions admitted that "Artes plerasque [missionarii] erexerunt, sed eas omnes Germanis debent." Arts and the crafts were completely neglected in the Spanish colony at that time, the houses in Buenos Aires being built of clay and covered with rushes. A German lay brother of the Society of Jesus, Joh. Kraus, erected the first larger brick buildings (college and novitiate) in Buenos Aires and C?rdoba; Brother Joseph Klausner of Munich introduced the first tin-foundry in the Province of Tucuman; while Indians from the Reductions

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12688b.htm