next »

TRAILBLAZERS
for students

ArchaeoFind
Archaeology News
Articles
Browse Attachments
Calendar
Downloads
Forum
Gallery
Links
Member Map
Our News Feeds
Submit Article
Tag Cloud
Video Channel

Trailblazers
Play Phaos
Chat
Trailblazers: Virtual Tours
History's Hinge - 'Ain Jalut

[Diving Doc]

Solomon,
I thought that was exactly what we were doing. Now I'm confused. I am not supporting "Marine Treasure Hunting" but proposing that responsible marine archaeology recovery by members of the private sector, who ascribe to the protocols and accept certified oversight, as a possible solution. With some sort of international standard a lot more history might come to light. This hasn't ever been addressed yet as there is no agreement between nations even on certified recovery. This position, that there may be a solution to a very thorny issue, is a hope for the future, nothing more. Until such time we must stumble along with every country making up their own standards or none at all.
Cheers,
Doc

[Solomon]

Doc,

My statement on my position was:
I support the position of the CBA and Nautical Archaeology Society on this. My position has now moved to oppose private treasure hunting at sea.

Though you chose to argue this with me, you now say:
I am not supporting "Marine Treasure Hunting"...

Then there should be no argument. Perhaps that is where the confusion lies.

In case others are confused by the difference between maritime archaeology and marine treasure hunting, I will elucidate further.

The History Hunters forum has these two categories:

Marine Treasure Hunts
Treasure hunting is an expression which nowadays applies mainly to maritime salvage. Treasure hunters try to find sunken shipwrecks and retrieve artifacts with market value. This industry is generally fuelled by the market of antiquities.
Professional organisations generally invest considerable effort to ensure that their treasure hunting is legal and hence is not looting. By definition, looters work illegally. Other treasure hunters may infringe national or international law concerned with property ownership, marine salvage, sovereign or state vessels, commercial diving regulations, protection of cultural heritage and control of trade in antiquities.
Treasure hunters tend to fall in one of three main groups:
1. small companies or individuals, working part time, in shallow waters
2. professional groups, sponsored by wealthy collectors, generally operating without any publicity
3. well-advertised companies, seeking money from investors and generally not excessively worried with profitability.

Maritime archaeology
Maritime archaeology (also known as marine archaeology) is a discipline that studies human interaction with the sea, lakes and rivers through the study of vessels, shore side facilities, cargoes, human remains and submerged landscapes. One speciality is underwater archaeology, which studies the past through any submerged remains. Another specialty within maritime archaeology is nautical archaeology, which studies vessel construction and use.

All the examples I gave of activities of dubious legality, manipulation of the facts and dishonesty come from the former category, Marine Treasure Hunting.

By comparison, an example of maritime archaeology is The Mary Rose.

It may also be worthwhile looking at the experts within each category. I have little or no confidence in the renowned experts used in the former and every confidence in those of the latter. Out of curiosity, I have just checked the foremost 'academic' experts used by the Fisher organisation - marine treasure hunters - and am not surprised to see that they are very poor and maybe nonexistent. Marine treasure hunting is a game very largely for cowboys, charlatans and frauds. This situation is the reverse in maritime archaeology, where competency, education, training, honesty and intellectual rigor are the norm.

As I said, I support the position of the CBA and Nautical Archaeology Society on this. Yes, there is "stumbling" as you describe it, but in marine treasure hunting and the confusion of weak, out of date legislation that surrounds it, whereas the position taken by the maritime archaeology profession - internationally - is very clear.

Solomon

[Diving Doc]

Solomon,
I do understand the differences. My hope is for international standards that can be enforced and must be accepted and observed. Uniformity of regulations concerning marine archaeology is the only way I can see to prevent the 'piracy' that is ongoing. Until that happens we are left with the situation that what is legal in some places is illegal in others. I don't condone it but I can't pretend it doesn't exist either.
Doc

[Solomon]

Doc,

I have no doubt that you understand the difference - I wrote In case others are confused...

I have made clear which international standards I support: I support the position of the CBA and Nautical Archaeology Society on this.

By opposing marine treasure hunting I am not pretending that marine treasure hunting does not exist. Pretense, I suggest,  would be claiming that marine treasure hunting either does, or could meet the standards of the CBA and Nautical Archaeological Society.

A test of this claim would be to list those maritime archaeologists who support marine treasure hunting and ask if they are satisfactory and of the same high standard as those who oppose it. Those I have examined are not.

Solomon

[Diving Doc]

Solomon,
Ditto on all the above. I am proposing that in the future no commercial marine recovery should be conducted without a certified and registered marine archaeologist. As noted, those who would try and lend credibility to fraudulent enterprise have been found in our investigations NOT to be accredited by any University teaching this science. This is not to say that commercial marine recovery is not taking place in the world under within the purvey of government with accredited oversight.
Doc

[Ninetyninestar]

I have a better understanding of both of you as two men both striving for an end goal, Solomon you are very determined and a leader, Doc your "hands on" approach has given you the opportunity to absorb, learn and prove to yourself that your values and your life are one.
With Sol and Doc at the helm of HH the site can surely not be steered off course.  A hard topic to swollow for a mud skipper like myself fair comments and noted.   I personally dont have the heart to sit back and watch as a dredge sucks through 300 years of history right or wrong, this does not mean that I jump on the first ballast pile found, Ive found over 50 wrecks and have maps for 140 more but to this day not picked at any other than those that were days from being wiped from the planet, I like to beleive that there are good people diving and locating wrecks some working on wrecks both legally and illegally that have values and are not snakes working the money system, some caught up in life others outlook being different, for plenty of divers people of the ocean  it takes a strong spirit to swim past an artifact and not touch even knowing it will be broken tomorrow or picked up by the next diver, Solomon I admire your pillar of strength, Doc one day we may dive together, Have a safe and prosperous New year, well done on a great topic and website , 99*

[Diving Doc]

Thanks for the very nice and concise appraisal 99*. For those who might not understand the nature of the post let me explain. My friend is involved in dredging and clearing the harbors in the islands of the Eastern Caribbean. A "Mud Skipper" runs dredging operations. Perhaps this gives the readers a better grasp of the situation. I was involved in this kind of work on several occasions. My boss, Pat Boatwright, and I dove the harbor ahead of the cutter-dredge to mark debris that might destroy the dredge head. 32 cannon ended up lining the water front road and adorning various govm't buildings. The rest we noted and carefully marked, wrapped with chain and buoyed underwater for later re-location. They later became moorings in this same harbor that we sold at a handsome price apiece. The smaller artifacts were simply dredged up and dumped off shore. I noted that spot as well and it yielded small treasures (Coins) for years. These harbors are a store house of history but the demands of cruise ship traffic will not be halted for the recovery, nor will the various govm'ts even hear arguments on the subject. Just another twist on the marine archaeology recovery story.

I will be down diving with you in the future, next year, I promise.

Merry Christmas
Doc