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History's Hinge - 'Ain Jalut

[Cornelius]

Although they look alike every Province had its own form / picture of the same coin . In general it was named a  ,, silver rider ,, after the knight on the horse  pictured on the coin  . It was a poor substitute for the silver  Spanish 8 reale coin . The Dutch tried to substitue this coin for the  8 real coin but the Asian trades-men did not like it too much . As a matter of fact nobody liked this coin no matter how much the Dutch tried to push this coin as equal to the 8 real coin . When they lowered the silver content of this coin the whole thing fell apart . Leave it up to the Dutch to make some extra profit no matter how they did it .   Cornelius

[bahamawrecker]

Hi Cornelius,

would you be so kind and tell me something about these coins that I found on a dutch shipwreck that sank in 1648.
What are they worth?
Bahamawrecker

[Cornelius]

Bahamawrecker . These coins don't look like Dutch coins to me  . More like German  but then how come German coins would showup overthere ?  Unless they are cleaned up a little and the text be read there is no sure identification possible . But ,....if you clean the coins the value will drop considerably .  Try to get a little clearer pictures and I will be able to help you I think .    Cornelius

[Jesus of Lubeck]

At least one of these coins, while not exactly Dutch, may perhaps be an Habsburg issue.  I can make out MATTH on what is likely the obverse of one of the coins and the Double Headed Eagle, that famous element of Habsburg heraldry, could well be hiding under the encrustation.  It is also of interest that after the definitive loss of the United Provinces in 1581, the Habsburgs of Spain and Austria were not able to see to the financial management of the these provinces.  Matthias (1612-1619), the brother of Rudolph II, became the German Holy Roman Emperor.  Matthias issued coinage in his name from 1617 to 1619.  During this reign some 870, 000 Florins of 28 Sous denomination were struck.  Matthias, like many of his contemporary Habsburgs, was a man of many crowns.  He was King of  Hungary from 1608-1619; he reigned as King of Bohemia from 1611-1619.  Matthias was much more conciliatory toward the Protestant States in Germany and the Netherlands.  It is likely that coinage struck under his reign and policies could have found its way into Dutch circulation.  In any event, perhaps Cornelius and Bart could add a few more comments here.  I very quickly translated, a little loosely, this French summary regarding Mattias� coinage.  Below is the original.  Below that is additional biographical information again from the French source.  The website with this information and a picture of the coin follows the French enteries.  Maybe Bart could also post a photo of this coin type from the HH resources?

Numismatic entry:

1315. Florin de 28 sols, 1619, Deventer, (Ar, 37 mm., 10 h., 20,05 g.) ( )
A/ MATTH. I. D. G. ROM. IMP. SEM. AVG. Aigle bic�phale �ploy�e portant en cour un globe crucig�re contenant un Z8 et somm� d'une couronne imp�riale coupant la l�gende en haut.
R/ .FLOR. ARG. CIV. - (Z8 dans un cartouche) - .IMP. DAVENT.. �cu � quatre quartiers orn� de cuirs et somm� d'une couronne ouverte coupant la l�gende en haut, entre la couronne et l'�cu .1.6.1.9..
Verk.153/1 - Del.1106 (R1) - DM.4755. Flan large. Frappe un peu faible au revers.

Depuis la perte d�finitive des Provinces-Unies en 1581, les Habsbourgs d'Espagne ou d'Autriche n'ont plus rien � voir dans la gestion de ces provinces. Matthias (1612-1619), le fr�re de Rodolphe II, est devenu empereur du Saint-Empire romain germanique. Deventer a monnay� � son nom de 1617 � 1619. Environ 870.000 pi�ces de 28 sous ont �t� frapp�es pendant cette courte p�riode .

Matthias est le troisi�me fils de Maximilien II et de Marie, fille de Charles Quint. Il naquit � Vienne le 24 f�vrier 1557. Au d�triment de l'Espagne, les �tats G�n�raux lui offrirent les Pays-Bas en d�cembre 1577, mais apr�s la bataille de Gembloux, en janvier 1578, il se r�fugia � Anvers avant de retourner en Allemagne en 1581. Son fr�re Rodolphe II �tant incapable de gouverner, il se fit attribuer l'Autriche, puis en 1608, la Hongrie et la Moravie et enfin la Boh�me en 1611. N'ayant pas eu d'enfant de son union avec Anne de Tyrol, il d�signa comme successeur son cousin Ferdinand de Styrie, futur Ferdinand II. Matthias mourut � Vienne le 20 mars 1619 .

website (see third entry under PAYS-BAS - VILLE DE DEVENTER - MATTHIAS - (1612-20/03/1619):

http://www.cgb.fr/monnaies/vso/v07/v070165.html

Cornelius � could this vessel be one of you VOC vessel engaged in the hide trade during the wars of the Reformation?

Again Bahamawrecker � really interesting find.

Best Regards,

Lubby

[bahamawrecker]

Many thanks for the replies,
here is another coin from the same shipwreck, as well as a sketch of the wreck site.
Bahamawrecker

[Cornelius]

Bahamawrecker . The only ship I know called  ,, Utrecht ,, is a ship that burned in  Doerian Strait in 1641 .  You are not in that area are you?   Another thing I noticed is that the picture of the two coins was deleted .  Why     Cornelius

[Bart]

I had posted the pic of the two coins. As Lubby informed me it was not the correct pic, so I just deleted my whole post. Sorry if that caused any confusion. I was unable to find the correct pic of Bahama's coins.

Bart

[Jesus of Lubeck]

Hello Bart and Cornelius,

The link I provided in my earlier post on the topic opens to a website page devoted to French numismatics.  The third entry on that page is: PAYS-BAS - VILLE DE DEVENTER - MATTHIAS - (1612-20/03/1619)

catalogue number is: 1315. Florin de 28 sols, 1619, Deventer.  I hope this is helpful.  It would be nice to have Cornelius' comments on the potential ID and might lead him to ID the other coins.

P.S. Bart very nice post on the flints.

Best Regards,

Lubby

[Cornelius]

Bart let me first say that your knowledge is exeptional . Next I have to remark that your pictures of the coins gave a good idea about what was happening in those times . As you know ( and I showed ) all provinces in the Netherlands had their own kind of money  . The money in circulation did not stop at the border however . Silver was silver . So a lot of foreign coins were use in the Netherlands also . The best kind of money to have was the Spanish kind . Everybody was so use to this kind of money that they preferred it above all . The Dutch tried to pay the Chinese and the Malay kings and warlords in Dutch silver coins ( the Silver Rider )  . This was never a successful undertaking . That is why the Dutch exported more and more gold coins . Now in the Northern Provinces there was an established business and the people payed eachothe in the currency of their country . Being familiar with these currencies made it easy to do that . Some of this money found its way on board ships ( silver is silver ) . So this is why this currency could show up onboard a Dutch ship in the Caribean or in the East Indies  . Mostlikely it was contraband money though because the Company made sure about the currency they placed on board the ships , and what was going to be use for regular business dealings .   Cornelius

[bahamawrecker]

Bahamawrecker . The only ship I know called  ,, Utrecht ,, is a ship that burned in  Doerian Strait in 1641 .  You are not in that area are you?   Another thing I noticed is that the picture of the two coins was deleted .  Why     Cornelius

Hi Cornelius,
This "Utrecht" belonged to the Dutch West India Company and sank in Brazil during a battle in 1648.
The sketch of the wreck site dates back to 1981, when I was working on the wreck.
Bahamawrecker

[Bart]

"Bart let me first say that your knowledge is exeptional "

Cornelius, I appreciate the sentiment, but I am sure you mean Lubby. I agree with you, he seems exceptionably knowledgeable.

Bart

[Bart]

Hello Bart and Cornelius,

The link I provided in my earlier post on the topic opens to a website page devoted to French numismatics.  The third entry on that page is: PAYS-BAS - VILLE DE DEVENTER - MATTHIAS - (1612-20/03/1619)

catalogue number is: 1315. Florin de 28 sols, 1619, Deventer.  I hope this is helpful.  It would be nice to have Cornelius' comments on the potential ID and might lead him to ID the other coins.

P.S. Bart very nice post on the flints.

Best Regards,

Lubby

Thank you Lubby. The link and reference you gave for the coin is the pic that I had posted, and removed. I agree that it is not the same coin as Bahama posted in his pic.

Bart

[Cornelius]

No Bart I did not make a mistake but you are right  , I should have included Lubby .    Cornelius

[Jesus of Lubeck]

Yes Bart, thanks for the plug but I would have to agree with Cornelius - your mastery of the website as well as your knowledge shed a great deal of light on history for the hunters among us.  Again your amplification of Bahamawrecker's flints was smashing.  Bahamawrecker him or herself, I would hazard a guess, possesses a great deal more knowledge of this subject and I hold every hope that B-wrecker will regularly contribute.  I am already learning a great deal.

Let me see if I can successfully upload the coin image I was after - hope this works:

[Bart]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to falsely accuse, I just don't see anything that warrants the complement. Nonetheless, I thank you for it.

Bart