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Topic: What is it? (Read 1644 times)
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bahamawrecker
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What is it?
«
on:
August 09, 2007, 09:58:20 AM »
What could this be?
At present all I want to say, is that this artifact comes from a ship wreck. If I give more information, it might bias the responses.
The artifact is made of bronze or brass.
The identity of the artifact, its purpose and use could give me very useful information about this unidentified shipwreck itself.
Bahamawrecker
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Jesus of Lubeck
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Re: What is it?
«
Reply #1 on:
August 10, 2007, 09:20:37 PM »
B-Wrecker,
Another very interesting, very curious artifact: generally the artifact gives every appearance of being a triangular form copper/brass/bronze priming flask, perhaps for a pistol. There are several ornate examples of pocket priming flasks; however, I have not found any that match the decorative technique found on your piece yet. The boxy form and side ring mounts (if I am interpreting the photo correctly) are of a style favored by German and Dutch musket or wheel lock armed professionals; however, the decoration is not necessarily European. This is not as specific a follow up as I would like and is rather tenuous. Nevertheless, it may move the discussion forward.
Best Regards,
Lubby
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Bart
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Re: What is it?
«
Reply #2 on:
August 11, 2007, 01:35:38 AM »
Bahama;
The squares below the rim, on either side tend to indicate the object was hung or held upright from them. Presuming the top piece is a lid, is it a hinged lid? Is the object cast, soldered from stamped halves, or hammered? What is the inside like, a large drilled hole, or ? Dimensions? Weight? Priming flask sounds very reasonable to me.
Bart
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Jesus of Lubeck
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Re: What is it?
«
Reply #3 on:
August 11, 2007, 09:24:18 PM »
Hello B-Wrecker, Bart, and the HH forum,
Here is a second post on the possible priming flask artifact, this time focusing on the puzzling aspects of the objects decorative motifs. First let me say that the search for an exact match in the form and motif of B-Wrecker�s possible priming flask has not yet achieved a satisfactory conclusion; however, some lines of further investigation have presented themselves.
It has already been noted that the decorative motif on the brass is not necessarily European; the design lacks the mythological hunting and battle motifs found in great frequency on European designs. Also of note, while there is a suggestion of Arabic or Islamic influence in the arrangement of the design and its complete lack of representation of the human figure, unlike many Islamic motifs, this design lacks any stylized Koranic script.
Working from the premise that the decorative motif is floral and the artifact is associated with firearms and therefore warfare or hunting, the survey led into cultures where floral motifs are found expressed on military objects. In this regard, there is a very strong association between lotus imagery and weapons in Buddhist and Hindu India. The representation of lotus imagery on weapons from the Indian subcontinent reached a particularly popular phase during the reign of the Moghul emperors (1526-1857).
Thus I would advance the hypothesis that the possible priming flask is perhaps decorated in a stylized lotus motif. This decoration, coinciding as it does on an object associated with a black powder firearm (perhaps), could fall into a date range from, say 1556 CE to 1707 CE when Moghul Rule was at the zenith of its influence (I presume B-Wrecker has a precise range for the date of the object).
After the reign of Jahangir (1605-1628), Moghul culture progressively found itself Indianized. During the last half of the 17th century, Hindu craftsmen, and other non-Muslim artisans, were developing decorative techniques that catered to the Moghul elites by blending Persian and Indian traditions without offending Islamic sensibilities. In the case of weapon decoration in Moghul India, the lotus along with other floral motifs finds strong representation. I will try to upload some examples of the lotus and floral decorative motifs from Moghul India that seem most suggestive of the decorative subject and style of B-Wrecker�s possible priming flask.
Working hypothesis: the possible priming flask was produced by a non-Muslim craftsman/woman in India possibly during the Moghul period. Because of the artifact�s known association as part of a shipwreck assemblage (we do not know if the vessel was European or Asian), it is also probable that the object found its way to sea as part of the Indian Ocean pilgrimage/trade routes sponsored by the Moghuls, or, conversely, found its way to sea on the Coromandel coast where European vessels were in contact with non-Muslim subjects of the Moghuls.
The first image is a photo of a Tang Dynasty or Five Dynasty (808-929CE) porcelain bowel with a stylized lotus motif. This piece was manufactured in the Celestial Empire for export along Asia�s maritime silk road and was found as part of the assemblage of the Batu Hitam shipwreck in Indonesia. This serves as a basic example of the five-petal lotus motif decoration on a utilitarian object made for export.
The second image captures a pair of Moghul battle-axes. These axes date from the end of the Moghul period, circa 1850 CE. Note the use of the five-petal lotus motif. This, of course is an example of the lotus motif used to decorate a weapon.
The third image is a close-up of a Moghul jade dagger hilt. Again the use of the five-petal lotus motif is present on a weapon. There is some debate about the exact date of the object; the blade is unquestionably older than the hilt, which appears to be a later addition. The date of the jade hilt is circa 1750 to 1850.
The fourth image is a black powder weapon, an 18th century Indian Bandukh Torador matchlock. Note the use of the five-petal lotus motif (as well as other floral design elements) on this weapon. With respect to B-Wrecker�s possible priming flask, it was suggested that this flask was associated with a pistol. Matchlock pistols were very popular weapons among these cultural groups: Europeans, Indians, and the Japanese (ranked by popularity of the use of this weapon)
Anyway, this is what I have come up with so far based on the intentionally sparse information provided to prevent bias from creeping into the analysis. Working only on the photograph, this is the direction the research led me. I do apologize in the event this hypothesis widely misses its mark.
If any member has better access to Moghul collections and photographs, or any other thought about this artifact of B-Wrecker's please do not hesitate to amplify, correct, or propose ideas.
Best Regards,
Lubby
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Bart
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Re: What is it?
«
Reply #4 on:
August 12, 2007, 12:37:24 AM »
Probably used with a flintlock or wheellock hunting arm. At the time, hunting was a prerogative for the nobility only, and this priming flask would have served that elite class. Its enameled decoration is very specifically Russian both in motifs and application.
Dimensions for the above item were not given, but it appears to be only a few inches tall. Unless your item has the spout broken off, we may be barking up the wrong tree. What do you think Bahama?
Bart
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bahamawrecker
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Re: What is it?
«
Reply #5 on:
August 12, 2007, 04:27:33 PM »
Lubby and Bart,
many thanks for the replies.
I will try to post better pictures of the container as well as other artifacts from the same site, in the coming days.
The lid on top, is slightly open on this photo. It is hinged and has indentations in front. The opening, when the lid is open, is nearly square and much too wide to serve as a powder dispenser.
Lubby's identification of the Lotus motive and origin in the Indian Ocean coincides with my own guess. The examples shown by Lubby do indeed have great similarity in style.
I was looking for a shipwreck that sank towards the end of the 17th century, (exact date known to me) in the Caribbean, when these artifacts were found. If this is indeed the shipwreck we were looking for, its find will be of great historic importance, due to the unique information it will provide on aspects of trade, piracy, slavery and politics of the time.
So, please continue with the research, we, HH, might be getting very close to a great discovery.
Bahamawrecker
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Bart
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Re: What is it?
«
Reply #6 on:
August 12, 2007, 07:25:35 PM »
Thank you Bahama, every bit of information helps. If the item is not damaged, then priming flask is out. My first thought on it was that it was an inkwell.
Bart
The 1700's ink well that is attached to the side measures
just over an inch square
and has a Bombay form being more bulbous in the middle than the bottom and top. The lid is shaped like a shell and is hinged with copper. The inkwell pictured here is attached to a quill holder.
source
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Jesus of Lubeck
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Re: What is it?
«
Reply #7 on:
August 12, 2007, 09:09:14 PM »
Hello Bart and Bahama,
Indeed, the cap mechanism poses a serious problem for the possible identification of Bahama�s artifact as a priming flask: as I wrote above, I have so far not been able to match the exact form of the container or the motif with any certainty. As long as I am not bothering the wrong tree too much, I hope my barking will be tolerated. At least we will know a great deal more about priming flasks. In light of the two recent posts by you both, I was considering abandoning this post to the bone yard; however, there may be some use in returning to the priming flask discussion, so I hope you will indulge me. While the artifact is now likely not to be a priming flask, and the wonderful suggestion that it may be an inkwell is in play, perhaps we can concentrate on the indentations on the outer edge of the rim. Is it likely that part of a tension mechanism to hold the lid of the artifact shut is missing? Additionally, I do not want to lose sight of an observation about which we all appear to be in accord, if I may quote Bart:
Quote from: Bart on August 11, 2007, 01:35:38 AM
The squares below the rim, on either side tend to indicate the object was hung or held upright from them.
In what manner would these square fasteners serve an inkwell? Perhaps an inkwell for use at sea was secured in some way to a writing table or suspended in some way to swing stable with the movement of the sea - preventing spillage?
Returning to Bart�s Russian priming flask example. The observation about the object�s association with the elite class are insightful. The photo is very helpful in highlighting the chief problem of how the top mechanism (?) of Bahama�s object functioned. There appear to be very distinctive trends, fashions, and technical approaches with respect to the design and crafting of priming flasks.
In many cases, particularly the Austro-Hungarian priming flasks, there appears to be a borrowing and influence from Ottoman Turkey. Moving away from the European cultural sphere, the rounded curves and cap mechanisms become more angular in the first instance and not always spring tensioned in the second.
The first photo is one you have probably already come across, a Turkish priming flask. Observe angular lines and the interesting approach to the spout cap mechanism. The second example shows two photos, on the left, a Saxon boxwood, leather and brass priming flask. On the right is an Austro-Hungarian priming flask that to my mind shows hints of Ottoman tastes and influence. The third example is a page from one of the few scholarly articles I came across on this topic. It shows a truly remarkable Italianate priming flask containing fabulous cameos from classical mythology alluding to themes of the hunt. Very ornate and distinctive objects to say the least. If anyone has access to the color versions of these photos, do not hesitate to share.
I agree with you completely that I may be off the mark with respect to the utilitarian function of Bahama�s interesting artifact. I do hope that the taking the risk of being incorrect will allow the discussion and search for identity of the artifact to move forward along a foundation of observations that survive criticism. I will see what turns up with inkwells.
Works cited for these comments:
A Gift of Powder Flasks
Stephen V. Grancsay
The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, Vol. 24, No. 5. (May, 1929), pp. 132-134.
Renaissance Shell Cameos from the Carrand Collection of the Museo Nazionale del Bargello
Martha A. McCrory
The Burlington Magazine, Vol. 130, No. 1023. (Jun., 1988), pp. 412-426.
Best Regards,
Lubby
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Jesus of Lubeck
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Re: What is it?
«
Reply #8 on:
August 13, 2007, 01:34:42 AM »
Bart and Bahama,
Moving along with Bart�s inkwell hypothesis, and the premise that form follows function, let us pursue the notion that the brass artifact perhaps held a powder or ink, but unlikely a powder associated with firearms. Let us also hold onto the indication that the brass container was designed to hang upright attached to perhaps leather, cord, or chain material. Let us also not discard an Indian Ocean provenance.
One initial approach to the object that I did not pursue fully was that the artifact was associated with female travel cosmetics. Because of the low incidence of artifacts related to the fairer sex occurring in shipwreck sites, I ran with the idea that Bahama�s artifact was firearm related. I did not want the floral motif to induce a gender bias in the research. Interestingly, artisans engaged in brassworking made containers of all kinds and types for both male and female utilitarian uses. Thus many of the techniques found in the fashioning of a priming flask may also be present in other brass objects used to store powders or inks.
How about we put forward the hypothesis that Bahama�s object is related to a portable cosmetic container used by a female? In this specific case, the brass object could be a kohl pot. In the middle east, a female�s cosmetic kit would consist of kohl for the eyelids, red pigment for the lips, and henna to adorn other skin surfaces.
Many European privateer and pirate vessels preyed upon Muslim shipping along the great pilgrimage sea route to Mecca. Female passengers making the Haj to Mecca were fairly common on such Muslim vessels. It is possible that a portable Kohl kit could have fallen into the hands of a European vessel that had contact with female passengers along this Indian Ocean route (seizure, pillage, etc.). Of course the importance of an artifact of this type found on a Caribbean wreck can not be overemphasized, but I will not speculate further on that subject.
Returning to the kohl pot idea: here are a few examples that I was able to find. The first image is a Somali kohl pot with applicator fashioned in brass in a saddlebag design. The second image is the more familiar (and common) ball and tube kohl pot design. Also of interest would be the presence of other artifacts associated with Muslim females making the Haj. Accordingly I have posted an example of a female�s porte Koran necklace. Perhaps something of this sort may also turn up.
Of course there are problems with the kohl pot hypothesis. Again, no clear match for the artifact, its fasteners, and lid immediately surface. However, collections of feminine utilitarian artifacts are not widely represented and further research will be needed. I have also not found an exact match with Bahama's object and an inkwell - although I will continue to look.
Best Regards,
Lubby
Works sited for these comments:
The Artistic Heritage of Somalia
Mary Jo Arnoldi
African Arts, Vol. 17, No. 4. (Aug., 1984), pp. 24-33+93.
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Bart
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Re: What is it?
«
Reply #9 on:
August 13, 2007, 05:18:18 AM »
"Let us also hold onto the indication that the brass container was designed to hang upright attached to perhaps leather, cord, or chain material. Let us also not discard an Indian Ocean provenance.
One initial approach to the object that I did not pursue fully was that the artifact was associated with female travel cosmetics."
1. We need to see a pic of the bottom of Bahama's item in order to proceed properly. If the bottom is flat, it can safely be stated that it was designed to be stationary on a flat surface. If not, then the square shoulders significance increases mightily. If the bottom is rounded, that would very much indicate that the 2 square shoulders were designed to support the object in some way yet to be determined.
2. We would also need to see a pic of the item with the lid open, if possible, with the inside exposed. These pics will help eliminate much speculation and bring about a quicker identification.
I think a hanging object and womens cosmetic container are mutually exclusive. As the woman was merely a passenger for a brief period on a very rare occasion, there seems no need to design a cosmetic container for that single specific incident in a woman's life.
It also seems that the item is too small to be the ships or captains inkwell, its size very much indicates there would need to be another, larger container of ink to supply it. A bit too redundant and unnecessary for ship life to my thinking. But keep in mind I am a land lubber with a very limited sea knowledge.
All priming flasks that I have seen so far have had rings or loops of some sort for attaching a cord to, it seems significant that this item does not. There doesn't appear to be any indication that there ever were rings or loops on it at all.
From what we know so far, there is only this one such item from the wreck site. That indicates to me that the item was most likely of a personal, and not commercial, nature. It likely isn't cargo. My searches so far have been of
16th century brass inkwell
, perhaps expanding it to
16th century brass container
would have better results.
Bart
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bahamawrecker
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Re: What is it?
«
Reply #10 on:
August 13, 2007, 07:35:15 AM »
Bart and Lubby,
many thanks for your great effort in identifying my container. I will, as soon as possible post other artifacts from the same wreck site. These artifacts will probably help a lot in confirming the origin of the shipwreck.
Since we all agree, that the container is most likely coming from the Indian Ocean, I will add one more piece of information now.
There is a contemporary mention that the ship was coming from the Indian Ocean and that it was a pirate.
My problem is that there are many shipwrecks in the area.
It is however very rare to find artifacts from the Indian Ocean in the Caribbean.
My interpretation therefore is that there is a high probability that this is indeed the pirate ship that came from the Indian Ocean.
The few artifacts that we recovered were deeply buried in the mud. We only dug by hand. No tools except metal detectors were used. This lets us hope that a serious archaeological excavation might indeed uncover a real time capsule of immense historical and archaeological value.
While waiting for more pictures, including an other container of very different shape, but similar volume, maybe we should concentrate on the origin of the container more than its function.
I do not want to bias the research, this is why I provide only minimal information at this time.
It does seem to me that the few artifacts that we have are not from a single location in the Indian Ocean but their style is of a variety that seems to indicate a wide spread region or time.
Bahamawrecker
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bahamawrecker
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Re: What is it?
«
Reply #11 on:
August 13, 2007, 08:01:08 PM »
Well, here are some more pictures.
Bahamawrecker
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Jesus of Lubeck
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Re: What is it?
«
Reply #12 on:
August 13, 2007, 09:25:24 PM »
Hello Bahama, Bart, and other HH members,
Thank you for posting these new and intriguing photos of your artifacts. The container is a wonderful combination of sophisticated, yet simple, design and functionality. Impressive. Look forward to where the bangle takes the discussion and will of course give my two cents worth.
Best Regards,
Lubby
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bahamawrecker
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Re: What is it?
«
Reply #13 on:
August 14, 2007, 10:01:51 PM »
Here are some better pictures of the container.
Unfortunately I am on one continent, the artifacts are on another continent and my home is on a third continent. thanks to the Internet I manage to post some pictures in spite of that, but not always it turns out quite right.
Bahamawrecker
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The Eyrie
Re: What is it?
«
Reply #14 on:
August 15, 2007, 01:40:44 AM »
Its features bring to mind a matchbox. In particular, the cross-hatching is similar to that used for striking a match, and the shape of the interior for holding matches. The artefact looks designed to fit to a strap, or belt.
The overall look appears to me to be Indian.
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=> Protection of Heritage
=> Shipwrecks, Maps and Salvage
=> What is it?
===> Coin Identification
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Trailblazers: History for Students
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=> Games
=> Resources
=> Write on!
=> Young Indy
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History Hunters
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===> The Eyrie
===> Outer Limits
===> A Word to the Wise
===> The Crew
=> Coffee Shop
=> Competition
=> Events
=> Making Sense of Evidence
=> Research Reference Library
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