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History's Hinge - 'Ain Jalut

[Administration]

One of the most spectacular archaeological finds in history, the treasures of Nimrod has been found in Iraq - thought by some historians to be among the most valuable ever unearthed

History Hunters is involved in quite a few treasure hunts. Each time we become involved, there is a temptation to exclaim: this must be the greatest lost treasure ever.

Notice how whenever marine salvors find a shipwreck, they claim that it is the greatest.

	Author: Jane McIntoshPublisher: Carlton Books; 1 edition (October 1, 2000)Languages: EnglishISBN-10: 1842220640ASIN: 1842220640

What does 'great' mean? Commercial value at today's prices? The greatest public attraction, or most well known?

Let us assume for this exercise that it means whatever you think it means.

There must be reliable evidence that the treasure existed and it must be lost still.

What is your greatest lost treasure?

Once we have a good list, I propose to run a poll to measure public opinion. The member who proposes the winning entry will receive a prize. Everyone - moderators included - is welcome to both propose an entry and to vote. One entry each.

The prize will be from a selection of artefacts and be announced at the point the poll begins.

Good fortune!

[Wopper]

Howdy History Hunters,

Our great Administrator has put before us a great question, what does 'great' mean? Commercial value at today's prices? The greatest public attraction, or most well known?
These are not only great questions, they are tough questions.

Instantly my mind started pondering just what does great mean, and what would constitute a great lost treasure? My first thought was Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, and the lost treasure of innocence. The treasures of King David, and the Arc of the Covenant came to mind along with a host of others. Surely these were all great treasures that were not only lost, but still lost. But then I remembered the two guidelines that were put before us by our Administrator. �There must be reliable evidence that the treasure existed, and it must be lost still.� It was the �reliable evidence� part that stopped me in my tracks. The Administrator had recently reminded us about the facts of what constitutes evidence with the following:.

�The nature of evidence has been discussed at length and in depth elsewhere on this forum. A reminderr: that somebody wrote a book about something is evidence that the author may have once thought something; it cannot in itself be evidence that the something is true. The problem with this subject is in understanding the nature of evidence. Evidential reasoning requires evidence and no amount of books about the subject can add up to even one jot of evidence.�

I came to the conclusion that each and every one of these stories which are found in books, could be argued that there is no real evidence that any of these treasures really existed. There are quite a few great treasures that were known to exist that are still lost, including the Amber room which has been dubbed the "Eighth Wonder of the World," Here is a link to the Amber room picture show. http://www.amberroom.org/pictures.htm As great a lost treasure the Amber room is, could it be considered the �greatest lost treasure?� Maybe so, but then maybe not.

I submit to you that the greatest lost treasure is �evidence.� That�s right, the real tangible evidence that does exist, and is still lost until somebody comes along and discovers it. Lost evidence which once existed is the only thing there is that can be used to prove tales, myths, rumors, and legends to be true. This is what History Hunters International has taught me, the greatest lost treasure there is, is �evidence.�

Sincerely,

Wopper

[Administration]

Food for thought, there, Wopper.

Some of the lost OT treasures may be thought to have reliable evidence as to their existence at that time. Some of Procopius may be regarded as reliable in that regard (he goes wrong when he strays into his current politics).

Though mainstream scholarship dismisses most of the OT as mythic, David Rohl and company makes, I think, a good case for some of the OT having a basis in history. He argues that the dating system in common use is wrong and if corrected, many of the biblical characters and events appear in accepted historical and archaeological data.

	Rating: (Based on 3 Reviews)Author: David RohlPublisher: Unknown (2001)ISBN-10: 0099365618ASIN: 0099365618

Substitute 'truth' for 'evidence' and I would agree with you, for truth is an extremely rare and therefore valuable commodity. Development of the sciences has made collecting reliable historical evidence a global, popular activity, e.g. archaeology. Sometimes I feel we are swamped by evidence and it is then that I am struck by the value of related factors, such as relevance and context.

For the sake of this competition and clarity, let us regard treasure as concrete, rather than abstract.

[Wopper]

Deareat Administrator,

I agree with you about truth being an extremely rare and valuable commodity. Truth did come to mind as a treasure, but not necessarily a lost treasure that is still lost. In any case I chose "evidence" over "truth," for is it not the evidence that brings forth the truth? Therefore, without the evidence the truth could remain in question. I stand by my choice as "evidence" being the greatest lost treasure that existed, and is still lost.

As for you to change the rules after a post has been made, I cry "foul" and invoke Queen Ann's rules" in regards to a fair fight. You were perfectly clear in the following statement:

What does 'great' mean? Commercial value at today's prices? The greatest public attraction, or most well known? Let us assume for this exercise that it means whatever you think it means.

It was because of this statement that I submitted "evidence" as meaning "great" to me. I therefore resubmit my entry for this competition as it being a valid entry, for I adhered to your original guidelines sir. For you to now invalidate my entry for being abstract rather than concrete, is a foul of your original guidelines that you put forth. I believe the "evidence" in this case would bring forth the "truth" in regards to the original guidelines in a court of law.

Sincerely,

Wopper

[Administration]

Wopper
You are confusing my definition of great - whatever you think it means - for that of treasure - concrete not abstract.

[Shirley]

A FORGOTTEN TREASURE. 
You men can dig for your gold and silver, and to find it will probably be your biggest treasure and memory, always searching for something that bit bigger, that will be worth that much more.  For me, well lets just say my treasure is worth little or nothing in monetary terms. But in terms of memory value it is priceless.

My treasure was much more exciting.  The unearthing of an old Anderson air raid shelter  dating from world War11 that had long been hidden in a back garden.  Trying to make a rockery in the garden started the whole episode. Digging around what looked like a mountain of clay and weeds, gradually revealed a corrugated  roof.  Immediately on seeing this, I knew what it was going to be. I could feel the excitement growing.  You see I had spent many hours as a young girl in one of these.  Help was drafted in to dig around this shelter to try to fully open it up.  At last, after much digging and alot of back ache, there it was.  The entrance to the shelter.  Oh my! how the memories flooded back as I peered inside.  This was my cave of treasure.  With the help of a torch I took that first look inside.  The old bed bunk was still intact, a small table was still there, and low and behold on the table was a photograph, and a cup, and even an old kettle.  I felt the tears coming to my eyes, wondering which family had slept here.  I have yet to find out who that family was.  As I got used to the light, I sat down on that little bunk bed with all of that treasure in my hand.  Remembering the many many nights my Mother, Brother, and I had slept in one of these, wrapped up trying to keep warm in our little "air raid suits". The flasks of tea and sandwiches to keep us fed. With my Father away at sea there was just the three of us, and any of the neighbours who needed company on those long nights. As a child you remember alot of things with a clearer memory, and as I sat on that bunk bed as a woman, they all seem to come flooding back one after the other. The warning sirens, The bombs falling all around us, bang, bang, one after the other.  I am amazed even now, how we learned to sleep through alot of this. After the all clear sirens went, looking out of this little shelter, all that could be seen was a glowing red sky. It looked like the sky was on fire. We tried to see which of the neighbours houses had been "hit". As a child you dont really think of the danger, nor do you really feel fear. It was just part of my life then.

So you see my "big dig" was this lost and forgotten air raid shelter. The treasure.....well my friends they were that old photograph, mug, and a battered kettle.

The shelter has long gone, and the rockery garden is well matured now. But those recovered treasures are my gold and silver.

regards Shirley

[Bart]

Very nice story Shirley! Treasure is where you find it!

Bart

[Administration]

Good story, Shirley. Haven't seen one of those shelters in a long time. If we needed shelter these days, I don't suppose there's anywhere good to go for most people. Me, I'd take the family to disused caves, almost next door.

[Wopper]

Howdy Shirley,

Thank you for sharing your story of the great treasure you found, as well as the great way you presented it. You had me in that Anderson air raid shelter sitting on the bunk beside you.

Sincerely,

Wopper

[Administration]

Not a single valid entry, so I'm halting this.

Examples of known lost treasures include:


  �   The treasury of England, lost by King John in 1216.

  �   The loot resulting from the sack of Rome by the Visigoths under Alaric I, which included the treasures taken by Rome from the Temple of Solomon.

  �   The treasures buried in a riverbed of the Busento, along with the body of Alaric I, in 410 CE.

  �   The treasures of the Copper Scroll.

  �   The treasury of the Templar Knights.

  �   The Ark of the Covenant.

All these have good provenance. And I'm sure there must be many great treasures still lost at sea.

[Shirley]

Administrat.   

My story that I have shared in this thread......is just that, a personal account of part of my chilhood.  Nothing more, I am neither a Treasure hunter or an Archeologist. Just an observer of interesting posts.

regards Shirley

[Wopper]

Dear Administrator,

I was up until 1:00 AM. working on a story to submit. I almost submitted it then, but decided to wait and double check it today. Now I read that you have halted the competition. The question you put forth was not an easy one for me to decide on, and it took a while for me to make a decision. I feel you have made the wrong decision, and have chosen the wrong path when you decided to halt the competition. It is my belief that the path you have chosen is a very slippery one. If this is the game you decide to play, I want no part of it in the future. I believe you put forth a great question, that is not that easy to answer. I have spent a great deal of time debating that question, and finally wrote my theory on what I believe should be considered the greatest lost treasure that is still lost. Only to have you halt the competition because of you being impatient. I did not start a post last month to try and win the competition, but because of the great question you put forth for this competition I decided I would do just that. I implore you sir to resind your decision to end the competition.

Shirley, you put forth a great a story about your great treasure. I believe it was not a valid entry, because it is not still lost

Sincerely,

Wopper

[Shirley]

Wopper......It was never my intention to enter my story in any competion.  I just thought it seemed the appropriate  place to tell it ...  in that thread. I could not even begin to compete with such excellent stories that I have been reading.  As I have said I am neither a Treasure hunter or an Archeologist.  But thank you for your kind comments.

regards Shirley

[Shirley]

Wopper...... I should have added to my post "Good Luck"

regards   Shirley

[Wopper]

Howdy Shirley,

Let me thank you twice over.

Sincerely,

Wopper.