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History's Hinge - 'Ain Jalut

[Bobadilla]

Hello everybody,

We are mostly speaking in this forum about the wrecks of Spanish treasure galleons or about historical shipwrecks from last centuries. (which is cery interesting!!!) I would like to start here new topic about a little more modern historically proven lost treasures. I tried to start this topic on Tresurenet Forum and it became to be very good  discussion around it. Because on HHI Forum there are different persons and very experienced historians, I would like to ask you about your opinion and experience. History of German submarines from the Second World War is, apart from the historical shipwrecks mainly around Dominican Republic, my biggist historical hobby. 

I will try not to go too much for the details, just basic facts.

Historically it has  been proven that in last days of the WW II eleven German submarines left Europe from three different harbours and were headed for America. Both North and South America. The spot where they were supposed to split was the Caribbean. Some of them never reached the Caribbean (mines, air attacks during the navegation through Atlantic Ocean). Five of them made it. Two of them were famous submarines surrendered in Mar del Plata. One  of them were sunk in the front of the coast of Brasil and two of them were scuttled somewhere in the Caribbean. I mean intentionally scuttled, not sunk. There was huge treasure of stolen gold, jewelry, pieces of art and gems on board of each of these eleven submarines when they left Germany. Passengers of these subs apart from just basic crew members  consisted of prominents of the Third Reich and of top Nazi scientists. The mayority of military and political prominents headed for Argentina, Chile and Paraguay, 99% of scientists for the USA. From the Caribbean they left then as civil honest persons on board of innocent  neutral merchant ships as regular passengers to various ports of America. Gold stayed on board of submarines to be recovered later. We could discuss here days and weeks if these treasures were recovered later or not,  simply forgotten. I know I know, what you want ot tell me.... Nobody will leave such a booty if he knows where it is. My answer is - you may be wrong. Try to be in the shoes of these people. Hunted, nervious, not knowing anything about their imminent future and of their families. They  got new identity, they got money and good state jobs, they established themselves and only one thing they wanted was to live in peace and completely forgotten. To go back for the Caribbean needed a party of trusted people among other requierements. There were set booby traps on submarines, scuba diving was just invented by Jacque Cousteau. Nobody wanted to risk his new life (well settled) by going for some treasure if they did not need it in fact.

From the Treasure Net Forum I heard some  experience of some members telling me about sunken (better said scuttled) German sub close to Bahamas and one close to USVI. The first one owas probably described as a main motif in the famous book  "Thunder  Point" from Jack Higgins  (my favourite author, by the way, I have read 17 his books....)
 
I am waiting for your opinions, my history friends! (Now the ball is on your side, Doc....)

Best regards to all,
Lobo 

[Diving Doc]

Lobo,

SCUBA diving was not invented by Jacques Cousteau, read the article here "History of Diving".
Interesting subject, Nazi subs carrying treasure out of Germany at the end of the war. What are your sources of information? German records perhaps?

Harry Patterson, who you call "Jack Higgins", used to vacation at Caneel Bay in St. John USVI, where he learned diving. His buddy, who ran the diving there, told him of three young divers who had found a German sub back in the 70's. Harry had his friend Marcus try and contact these divers. Only one was still in the islands and he flatly refused to take a 62 year old "Belfast Boyo" to the site. Harry wasn't that good a diver and he wasn't born in Northern Ireland. He was a good writer and wrapped a fair story of fact and fiction around the sunken German sub and her dead crew,"Thunder Point". Only trouble was, he put it in shallow water 20 miles from where she lay, must have galled him no end.

Now it's your turn Lobo, what are your sources?

Doc

[Bobadilla]

Good evening Doc,

OK, it is my turn now.......

I also appologize for my expression that Jacque Cousteau invented  scuba diving. I wanted to tell that he invented aqualung…. 

I have had different sources. During the last almost 20 years of my search for the truth about sunken German subs with treasure on board in the Caribbean I was travelling a lot to confirm my theories, I met during these trips some very interesting individuals and I could read quite a lot original documents. Some of these documents appeared during my hunt for Ambar Room (see another topic on this Forum).

These documents were copies of original reports from secret Nazi meetings. One of this meeting, in Strasburg, I described briefly in the section of Ambar Room. German troops  accumulated vast amount of treasures looting the whole Europe during almost 5 years of the Second World War.  It was decided that these treasures will be hidden in several places in Europe during Autumn 1944, if the war would turn against the Germany, but the mayor part of accumulated gold, diamonds, stones, antiques and jewelry will be transported to Latin America and to the Caribbean to be wisely used years after the war. The first deliveries of gold, platinum and diamonds started already in winter months of 1943 just to secure positions over there. The means of transport were agreed to be SUBMARINES. It was clearly written there. President Peron in Argentina was known for his welcomed approach to literally thousands of German war criminals, among them top Nazi leaders, to give them asylum, new identity, possibility to open business there and to give to this people completely new life. It was not only Argentina but also Chile and Paraguay. I went personally to Chile several times to spent some time in the south of Chile, well behind the lake Villarica and Pucon  where I was looking for some clues and evidence. Thanks to the fact that Spanish is my second mother language, I was able to talk to many persons there. I did the same in Spain, Canary Islands, (this location is very interesting, by the way….) in Korsica, in Greece  and in former Yugoslavia, where secret German submarine bases were told to be hidden during the war.

So there you have one source, Doc : my personal research in the field.

Everybody with the interest about this topic can find lot of material on internet but I  consider this source generally good just for orientation and as a base for some deeper research. Though there a re some very good web pages about the topic on internet, for example www.uboat.net, www.sharkhunters.com, www.ubootwafe.net. From time to time you can find good articles about this topic in various magazines or newspaper, too.

You can find very interesting books about this topic, no fiction, only historical fact. One of these books is, for example, ULTRAMAR  SUR, authors Juan Salinas and Carlos de Napolis. It is thick historical book that is definitely worth reading. It is true story about U-977 and U-530 and about the whole climate and mysteries around treasures deliveries to Latin America during the last months of the Second World War with German submarines.  Other very good old book with fantastic sources is the book from F. Martinelli, LOS TIBURONES DEL TERCER REICH   (Sharks of the Third  Reich). The other one is from Admiral Windth Levandier, LA SEGUNDA GUERRA MUNDIAL Y LOS SUBMARINOS ALEMANES EN EL CARIBE (The Second World war and the German submarines in the Caribbean). I can humbly note here my own book, published in Santo Domingo in 2005. TESOROS ESCONDIDOS Y  PERDIDOS EN LA REPUBLICA DOMINICANA (Hidden and  Lost Treasures  in Dominican Republic) where I devoted the whole large chapter to this topic. You can not miss the books like MEMORIES OF ADMIRAL DONITZ, either, of course.

There is the second source : serious historical books

During the last five years in Dominican Republic I had a possibility to visit and to interview several old persons, eye witnesses of German submarine crews being supplied with food and water on this island during the WW II. They paid very well with golden coins and jewelry for these supplies. There was a spy net in DR running secret German submarine bases here between 1943 and 1945. This was even put in public in US Congress in May 1943 like a possible thread for the USA, these secret submarine bases in the Caribbean.
I had also possibility to talk to some survived German submarine crew members years ago in East Germany. They had also very interesting information.
 
There is the third source : interview with witnesses

There are still some vast historical archives regarding German U-Boot force, like in Kiel in Germany. You can write them your inquiries and questions, they generally answer very quickly and with full of photos and information. You can find very interesting documents in these archives, like for example about Walter electric revolutionary submarines and their real purposes during the last months of the war.

There is the fourth source : international archives

I hope Doc, that I answered your question about the sources for my theory about sunken German treasure submarines.

Best regards to all,
Lobo

[Bobadilla]

Another extract from one of internet sources.....

Before proceeding with the problems of heir-less assets, a brief look at what could be called gold stories, legends, or myths, in order to shed additional light on to the missing Nazi treasures. The biggest hoard still missing is that of Bormann?s Aktion Feuerland project. Undoubtedly, there are as many myths as there are facts surrounding Bormann?s treasure. Some have taken on the aspects of legends. Thus the reader is forewarned that what follows concerning this hoard maybe partially false. What is known with certainty is up until June 1944, Bormann transferred his loot across France in trucks to Spain. In Spain the treasure was transferred to U-boats, which then made the voyage to Argentina. After D-Day with the land route closed to Spain, Bormann continued his transfer of assets to Argentina by air. Author, Ladislas Farago claims that the virtually complete record of this operation is preserved in the archives of Coordination Federal in Buenos Aires, in the FBI files, and in the archives of the British Admiralty. The later assumed the U-boats were on regular patrol.69 Farago claims the shipments began in 1943 and arrived on a regular basis spaced at six to eight weeks apart. He states the money and gold were deposited in the name of Eva Peron.

According to Farago, the Perons managed to gain control over much of Bormann?s treasure and in Eva?s Rainbow Tour of Europe; she deposited over $800 million in numbered accounts in various Swiss banks. Farago lists the treasure as:

187,692,400 gold marcs
17,576,386 American dollars
4,632,500 pounds sterling
24,976,442 Swiss francs
8,370,000 Dutch florins
17,280,009 Belgian francs
54,968,000 French francs
87 kilograms platinum
2,511 kilograms of gold
4,638 carats of diamonds and other precious stones.70

Farago?s list of Bormann?s treasure above has been partially verified by Adam Lebor, as he specifically list the same quantities of gold and diamonds.71 Although Farago starts the gold deliveries before the Red House meeting, the Allies first became alarmed at the Nazi gold transfers it in 1943. Allied intelligence believed that much of the first gold to arrive in Argentina was used to finance the Nazi espionage web in South America.

One legend concerning Argentina and Nazi gold claims that in the closing days of the war a fleet of Nazi U-boats containing the Nazi treasure and top Nazis, including Hitler left Germany for Argentina. In route to Argentina they encountered an allied naval task force and a battle resulted in the loss of several allied ships, which the United States continues to deny. Recently, additional evidence surfaced in Pravda shedding new light to the legend.72 It is known that ten U-boats were dispatched to Argentina in the last days of the war. Paravda claims that at least 5 of them reached Argentina with no less than 50 top Nazi officials. During the trip the U-boats sunk an American battleship and the Brazilian cruiser Bahia with a death toll of more than 400, including US citizens.

Pravda claims the US ship was the USS Eagle 56. However, the US Eagle 56 was sunk on April 23, 1945, off the Maine coast towing targets for dive bombing practice. Only thirteen of the 67 crewmembers survived. The navy maintained the ship was sunk by a boiler room explosion until recently, finally acknowledging that the USS Eagle 56 had in fact been sunk by U-boat U-853. U-853 was sunk on May 6, 1945, in the North Sea southeast of New London.73

The Bahia was sunk by U977, which surrendered at Mar del Plata, Argentina on 17 August 1945, and was turned over to the US for testing. Four US radiomen: William Joseph Eustace, Andrew Jackson Pendleton, Emmet Peper Salles, and Frank Benjamin Sparksere were aboard the Bahia and were killed. The US Navy still lists the men as missing in action. Brazil ascribes the sinking of the Bahia to an onboard explosion.

The article in Pravda was based on information from Argentina researchers Carlos De Napoli and Juan Salinas. They claim that a fleet of almost 20 U-boats sailed from the Norwegian port of Bergen, between May 1st and May 6. They joined another group of U-boats coming from the US coasts around Cape Verde. There they learned of the surrender. Some scuttled their boats, others surrendered, and still others set course for Germany. However, at least six of the U-boats proceeded for Argentina. Further, the article claimed that the Argentina Navy was ordered to stop attacks on German U-boats operating close to Argentina beaches, on orders from Churchill. Farago for one has confirmed that the Argentina Navy was issued such an order by Peron. He does not however, mention that the order came from Britain.

Regards to all
Lobo

[Diving Doc]

Hey Lobo,
If you haven't seen this interactive site on Germany's Lost Subs, here it is.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostsub/mapsans.html

Map of Lost U-Boats.
U-869, the submarine profiled in the NOVA program "Hitler's Lost Sub," was just one of the more than 1,100 Unterseeboote, or U-boats, sunk, scuttled, captured, or otherwise lost to German forces during World War II. Here, naval historian Timothy Mulligan describes 25 of the most historically significant U-boats. Click on the map labels and plunge into the fascinating and often tragic histories of some of Germany's most notorious "sea wolves."

Cheers,
Doc

[Bobadilla]

Hello Diving Doc,

Thanks a lot for your web page, I will check it out right away. I am glad that you are back, I have not heard from you for a long time, my friend!

Regards
Lobo

[Diving Doc]

Lobo,
I have been traveling for two months old friend.
Way behind in everything but our UK projects.
Cheers,
Doc