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History's Hinge - 'Ain Jalut

[Sovereign]

I would really appreciate some help in identifying these coins. I know for sure that they're Spanish, but after that, I'm vague. Can anyone here please help. First, the silver.
Moneypenny, would you be so kind?

Thanks!
Obverse


Reverse

[Sovereign]

And now the gold:



Thanks again 

[moneypenny]

Hello Sovereign,  Yes, I'd be glad to help. I will discuss the silver coins first. I am assuming the obverse and reverse of each coin are pictured above and below in the photos.
These are Spanish cobs of the Mexico mint. Each cob was unique because each was struck individually by hand. Thus there were many variations depending on the skill (or mood) of the worker. This is what makes cobs so fascinating to study.
The first coin on the left top appears to be from the year 1730 (numbers visible around the edge at 9 o'clock) which is just 2 years before Mexico mint changed to the machine made pillar dollars. The middle coin has no date, but the Bourbon shield of Phillip V (king from 1700-1746) would correspond to the same time period. The coin on the right appears to show the date 1731. 
  The coins can be distinguished as Mexico mint by the type of cross on the reverse, and the M with a small o above for Mexico. (The small o was to distinguish it from Madrid mint.) This mint mark is visible on the left side of the shield on coins 1 and 3.
  The coin on the left also has the assayer's initial - R, under the mint mark.  Assayer initials are not visible on the other 2 coins, but this was not unusual, as the coins were often carelessly made.
The cross side always showed castles and lions in 4 quadrants.
   The coin in the center also shows the denomination I on the right side of the shield side.  This meant it was a 1 real, one eighth the value of an 8 reales, the coin that people often call a "piece of eight".  Reales were minted in one half, one, two, four, and eight reales. 
  I will discuss the gold coins in another post tomorrow.  Hope this has been of some help, Sovereign.
moneypenny

[Sovereign]

Great answer, moneypenny: my thanks!

I have just added the correct titles to the images. Thanks for the prompt.

I didn't realise that machines minted coinage in Mexico so early (from 1732). I must look into this, maybe find an image of such a machine.

I also wonder if it is known who the assayer 'R' was.

So the silver coins are cobs. I will look into the etymology of that word.

Now I know excactly what these coins are, I can get a valuation for insurance purposes. Thank you v. much, moneypenny, and I look forward to your expert comments on the gold coin.

[moneypenny]

The assayer in Mexico at that time was Nicholas de Roxas. Sorry, should have put that in my last post. 
  Milled Pillar dollars were made beginning in 1732 in Mexico mint. This was very early compared to the Lima and Potosi mints which didn't start minting milled coins until 1752 and 1767.  See this link:
http://www.newworldtreasures.com/milledpillar.htm 
  There are photos at that site that will show how the coins were no longer unique, but instead perfectly round and regular.
  I am hoping to have your gold coin info sometime today. Sorry for the delay.   
Moneypenny

[Sovereign]

That's great! Your assistance in this matter is most appreciated, moneypenny. I reckon that with this, I can now go ahead and get the valuation for insurance.
No rush on the gold coin, please take your time.

Cheers!

[moneypenny]

Now to identification of the gold coin.  Spanish gold coins were called 'escudos', and were also cobs, just like the silver coins. They were hand struck so that each was unique. I cannot be as precise in identification as I was on the silver, since this coin doesn't carry as many details. My best guess is that the coin was minted in Santa Fe de Bogata, Columbia during the reign of King Philip IV. The style of cross and the letters partially visible on the shield side both lead me to this.  On the left side of the shield are clearly seen an R and an A under it.  One can also faintly see what might be an N above the R. Thus we would have NR, then a dot, then the A.  This could be the mint Nuevo Reino which was what they often called Bogota, and then the assayer initial which could be Alonso de Anuncibay who worked in the 1630's in that mint.  The shield is that of the Hapsburgs, which would have been the shield of Philip IV during the 1630's, and the obverse design of the coins was changed after 1651, so that is another clue.  There is no precise date visible however.  And unfortunately I cannot discern the denomination from this photo.  Escudos were minted as 1, 2, 4, and 8 escudos, and were worth 16 times as much as the silver coins.
  A note about the word 'cob' that you had referred to previously - most authorities believe it to come from "cabo de barra" or end of the bar, as the cobs were sliced off the end of a log of silver and then hand struck.  These logs were often misshapen, so the coins were rarely truly round, and as I said in my last post, speed in getting the gold and silver back to the king in Spain was what was important, not the attractiveness of the cob coins. 
  As a further aside - Santa Fe de Bogota was the first New World mint to make gold coins because of the gold that was found nearby, but tragically the first 2 years of the mint's production was lost in the sinking of the ships of the 1622 fleet, which included the famous 'Atocha'.  Can you imagine poor King Philip waiting in Spain for all that time, mostly broke because of the high cost of wars, etc., and then finding out much of the treasure he was awaiting would never reach him. But that's another story . . .
Hope this is helpful.
Moneypenny

[Sovereign]

I could not have asked for more, moneypenny 
So that's where 'cob' comes from and why the coins are so misshapen.
Good for Britain that Philip lost his wealth 

Very many thanks for the informed and detailed identification.

[Solomon]

You really know your Spanish coinage, moneypenney, that's clear. Well done!

Sol

[DeepDiver]

Ms Moneypenny how do you identify a coin that has no date and only a partial Shield? How do you identify those little coins with only partial stamps?? Curious as to how it's done,
Dave

[moneypenny]

I'd be glad to discuss identification clues on Spanish coins.  A bit of knowledge about the history of Spain is a necessary prerequisite to identifying coins with only a small amount of  detail. It takes quite awhile to feel comfortable enough with all the possible variables to identify cob coins reliably. And even after years of study, I am still sometimes stumped and have to look to my resource books. Of course, this forum is not a course in coin identification, but I will offer general information.
  The obverse side of cob coins from mints in the New World were of mostly two general designs - a shield of the reigning king, or a design known as "pillars & waves".  These were used at different periods of time between the 1500's and the mid 1700's.  The mints did not always produce the same designs as each other at the same period of time.  There were two main types of shield, that of the Hapsburgs and that of the Bourbons. Within these two there were variations as well.
  The reverse side was always (except for odd exceptions) a cross with castles and lions in the four quadrants of the cross.  The style of the cross helps to distinguish the mint.  And the style of the lions and the castles varied with assayer and time period.
  Other details that help are mintmarks, as each mint stamped its own mark, usually one or two capital letters. The location on the coin of this mintmark is also a helpful point.   The date of course is very helpful, but is often not visible.  And around the edge on both sides was a written legend. This also changed with time period, and was mostly in Latin.  The denomination is sometimes visible and was written in different styles that help to distinguish mint or time period.
  There are quite a few websites that offer more detailed information on Spanish cob coin identification, usually taking quite a few webpages to include all the pertinent info.  Spanish cobs are fascinating coins to study, precisely because there are so many variables and the fact that each one is unique, since they were each hand struck.  Below are a few photos of beautiful examples of cobs, both silver and gold.
 Moneypenny

[Solomon]

Moneypenny: I'm guessing here, but if I was presented with an artefact - a coin, say - which didn't have detail sufficient for identification - then I would think immediately of analysing the metal. This has been done on quite a number of artefacts where, for example, provenance is questionable. Metal produced from ore of a particular place, then worked in a foundry, tends to have unique characteristics. This can be used to determine if the unknown artefact is from the same ore and time/place.

One such analytical method is X-ray Fluorescence, which examines the surface composition and is therefore non-destructive. Here are a couple of links to more on this:

Scientific analysis of the gold disc-on-bow brooch
The MetExpert series of X-ray fluorescence analyzers (XRFA) and main applications

Sol

[Sovereign]

All good stuff, Sol. It's a fair warning to fakers 

[Diving Doc]

Moneypenny,
Here's an odd Spanish gold coin that is somewhat finer in detail but it does appear to be hand made rather than milled.  It appears that the die was broken or was it twice struck? Note the image on the left.

The image on the right has vertical bars in the lower left quadrant where the usual device for The Low Countries were bars set at a 45 degree angle in this location. Any joy Moneypenny?
Doc

[moneypenny]

Wow, what a gorgeous coin!  Wouldn't I love to own something like that!  The story that goes with this early Spanish escudo is one of romance, intrigue, madness, politics, and death!  I believe this cob to be from the Seville Mint in Spain in the mid 1500's. The resolution on these photos is not the best, but to the right of the shield a capital letter 'S' can be discerned, the symbol for 'Seville'.  These escudos were some of the earliest Spain produced, and the detail is wonderful.  The legend around the edge is what tells the story.  The king at this time was Carlos I and he reigned with Juana (Johanna). However, this was not his bride, but his mother! The story is convoluted and full of intrigue.  Juana was often called 'La Loca' (the crazy woman), as it is said she lost her mind when her beloved husband Philippe died soon after they married, and lived in a world of her own until her death years later.  There are many websites, articles, and books written about this fabulous period in Spanish history and I would encourage anyone reading this to explore the story. You won't be disappointed!  The story includes enough chaos and mystery to thoroughly satisfy and confound you.
   As I was saying, the legend on the coin says - IOANA ET KAROLUS on the shield side, and HISPANIARUM REGES SICILIA on the cross side.  This shield was theirs at the time, and included Sicily as one of the provinces Spain ruled at the time.   The king's shield changed throughout the years cobs were produced, as the lands Spain claimed changed.  These coins were not usually dated at this time.   
You were correct Doc, that the coin appears to have been either double struck or struck with a broken die, both very common occurrences with these hand made cobs. The error can be seen most clearly at the top, on the cross side, where the S is doubled, and the ring of dots around the cross is doubled. Hard to tell which was the case here, at least for me. I'm sure there are some experts out there who could help us out.
Thanks for bringing this coin to our attention.  I love the history that it entails!
Moneypenny