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History's Hinge - 'Ain Jalut

[Jesus of Lubeck]

Hello Southwesters,

Here is one of my few attempts at starting a topic.  As we have noted with the threads related to the Jesuit missions and mining activity in the Sonora and Pimeria Alta areas, there is a large body of folklore and legend material enshrouding the topic.  Se�or Don Jose, whose reference to Heinrich Schliemann, the Iliad, and the eventual locating of the archaeological sites of Mycenae and Troy (argued to be modern Hasirlik, Turkey), thoughtfully called attention to the boisterous interplay between written (and sometimes oral) traditions and archaeology.  Also worth noting in this respect is the very prominent role that biblical narrative plays with respect to the archaeology of the near east.

In my undergraduate days, I had to be forced into taking an anthropology course on the Folktale.  It was taught by a professor who was also an archaeologist specializing in the Dravidian cultures of India.  I entered the course with a full load of prejudice against the subject and expected to be forced into a long series of Walt Disney and Brothers� Grimm fiddle-faddle by our besandled professor that would take me needlessly away from more serious historical studies.  The course was a sobering eye-opener (The medieval Iranian version of Cinderella [Mah Pishani] should only be told within easy reach of a bolt of strong scotch).  At the end of the course there was no chef with appropriate training to cook a crow pie to the size and dimensions necessary for me to eat in front of this professor.  His course brought us to the transfer of ideas and story motifs across India and Eurasia along the great trade routes of history.  While often the motifs were solidly embedded in the folktale as it wandered through time, space, and culture, often the details of material description contained useful information for dating the version of the tale and its motif as well as identifying a cultural source.

In Homer�s Iliad for example:

"...and he too put over his head a helmet fashioned of leather; on the inside the cap was cross-strung firmly with thongs of leather, and on the outer side the white teeth of a tusk-shining boar were close sewn one after another." (Iliad X: 261)
 
Boar's Tusk helmets were also common to the late Bronze Age and were an identifying feature of Aegean warfare. The pictures shown were found in the Shaft Tombs of Mycenae, as well as statues and reliefs that were found elsewhere in the region. G.S. Kirk observes that "[w]hen Odysseus borrows from Meriones a boar's-tusk helmet that is unique in Homer, and moreover is specified as a heirloom, we know that a piece of Achaean armor, is being described; and that this description must be based on a very long and in this case accurate tradition stretching back in some from to the Bronze Age itself."
(Kirk, G.S. Homer and The Oral Tradition. Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press 1976).

Luckly, there is a very useful resource for analyzing and classifying folklore in a manner that is often useful for those specialists that must begin the process of sorting out fact from legend when confronted by primary and secondary source documents that contain an admixture of both elements.
Here is the Wikipedia entry for the biography of one of the major lights in placing the study of folklore and legend on an academic footing.

Stith Thompson (March 7, 1885 � 1976) was one of the world's leading authorities on folklore. He was born in Bloomfield, Kentucky, the son of John Warden and Eliza (McCluskey) Thompson.

He joined the English faculty of Indiana University (Bloomington), teaching composition. Interested in traditional ballads and tales, he organized summer institutes on the subject at the university that ran from the 1940s to the 1960s. These led, in 1962, to the foundation of the University's still active Folklore Institute with another preeminent student of folklorist, Richard Dorson.
While Thompson was the author, coauthor, or translator of numerous books and articles on folklore, he was perhaps best known for his work on the classification of motifs in folk tales. His six-volume Motif-Index of Folk-Literature (1932�37) is considered the international key to traditional material.

Finnish folklore scholar and anthropologist Antti Aarne somehow escapes mention as an author and compiler working with Stith Thompson in this Wikipedia entry, however, the Motif-Index of Folk-Literature cited above would not have come into its present form without this under appreciated Finn�s work.
Here is the Wikipedia entry for Antti Aarne:

Aarne was the student of Julius Krohn and his son Kaarle Krohn. He further developed their historic-geographic method of comparative folkloristics, and developed the initial version of what became the Aarne-Thompson classification system of classifying folktales, first published in 1910. The American folklorist Stith Thompson, in translating Aarne's motif-based classification system in 1928, enlarged its scope, and with his second addition to Aarne's catalogue in 1961 created the AT-number system (also referred to as AaTh system) often used today. The AT classification system has only recently (2004) been expanded by Hans-J�rg Uther (Aarne-Thompson-Uther or ATU system).

The Aarne-Thompson system catalogues some 2500 basic plots from which, for countless generations, European and Near Eastern storytellers have built their tales. As Europeans and Near-Easterners travelled to the New World, the Far East, Africa, and other distant places, their tales migrated as well, often flourishing in their new environments. Hence, the Aarne-Thompson system encompasses tales found around the world.
�Ashliman, p. ix

The classification was criticized by Vladimir Propp of the Formalist school of the 1920s, for ignoring the functions of the motifs by which they are classified. Furthermore, the "macro-level" analysis means that the stories that repeat motifs may not be classified together, while stories with wide divergences may be, because the classification must select some features as salient.

Most university libraries are equipped with this resource.  Stith Thompson also wrote a handy version of folk-tale classifications that may be read online: The Folktale (New York : Dryden Press, 1946).

The Southwest appears to have one of the richest troves of folklore enmeshed with historical events and physical sites available to us.  Much of this folklore is recorded, however, there may well prove to be a portion that is not.  I am most familiar with the Lost Mission folktales of Baja California and will post on these versions as soon as time permits.  It would be very interesting to collect some legend versions associated with specific sites (Jesuit and Franciscan missions, or alternatively, presidios, pueblos, and rancherias) and juxtapose these traditions with primary sources and archaeological findings.

As Gollum mentioned in his last post on the Jesuit topic, there is a reluctance to compromise research among some of the HH members.  Accordingly, we can agree to steer well clear of current projects.  But certainly there must be some worthwhile examples from past endeavors that would be of interest here.


Image one: boar tusk helmet � late Bronze Age Aegean.


Image two: figurine with boar tusk helmet � late Bronze Age Aegean.


Image three: The Portals of El Dorado

Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney, Sculptor

There was once among the South American tribes a belief that in a certain far-off country lived a king called El Dorado, the Gilded One. He ruled over a region where gold and precious stones were found in abundance. The story influenced a vast number of adventurers who led expeditions to seek the land of golden treasure; but notwithstanding the fact that they searched most carefully and for long periods, they all failed to find it. The idea of the unattainable gave the suggestion to Mrs. Whitney for her fountain. The gold of El Dorado was used as a symbol of all material advantages which we so strongly desire - wealth, power, fame, et cetera.

Gollum, Don Jose, IHS333, and of course Wopper � what do you think?

Very Best Regards,

Lubby

[Wopper]

Howdy Lubby,

Lost missions of Baja California, you sure know how to put the stick in the pot and stir it! For some strange reason unbeknown to most, I just happen to have some reference material in my library. I think you will go far with this topic, it is another hot potato for the Jesuits. I believe it would be helpful to list some of the reference material related to the subject at hand.

Baja California
Vanished Missions, Lost Treasures, Strange Stories, True and Tall
By Choral Pepper
Ward Ritchie Press Pasadena 1973.

Baja: Land of Lost Missions
By Marquis McDonald with Glenn N. Oster
The Naylor Company 1968

Hovering Over Baja
By Earl Stanley Gardner
William Morrow and Company New York 1961

The Journey of the Flame
Being an Account of One Year in the Life of Senor Don Juan Obrigon
Written down by Antonio De Fierro Blanco
New York Literary Guild 1933

Legends of Lost Missions and Mines.
By Charles W. Polzer S.J.
Tucson Corral of the Westerners. Smoke Signal, no. 18 (Fall), 1968 pp. 169-183.
 
Happy reading.

Sincerely,

Wopper

[IHS333]

Respected Senor Lubby:  Hmmmm.  Interesting.  Your well written note brings to my mind's eye the vision of an octopus, with eight wiggling arms, each arm equipped with lots of suction cups for grabbing and holding.  You may have created a monster here.

The boars tooth headgear is a perplexing item.  I lived in Greece several years, and spent some time in Turkey, Egypt, and Kazakhstan.  I prowled museums and lots of sites.  I do not believe there was anything like it in the museum in Alma Ata (now called Almaty), Kazakhstan.  There was some really interesting stuff in Alma Ata, that is for sure.  And I don't believe there was anything like this in the Cairo Museum.  Lots of Pharionic stuff but nothing like this.  I know about the boars tooth headgear and, although it looks like a military helmet, I never really felt comfortable with it actually being a "brain bucket" used in combat.  I have hunted and taken wild boar in the U.S., and warthog in Africa.  In fact, I have some wild boar tusks lying on one of my cluttered bookshelves right now.  There is absolutely no way that I would trust in protection of a helmet made of boars tusks.  The tusks, once extracted from the boar's skull, dry out within about two years even in a humid climate.  Of course, in a dryer or less humid climate the tusks would dry out even faster.  The problem with the boar tusks is that when they dry out they develop longitudinal cracks.  In effect, they are actually quite fragile and would never provide protection against an arrow, a sword, club, or battle axe.  The best that could be hoped for in combat would be for the sloping boars tooth "helmet" to deflect a downward chop from a sword.  Unfortunately, there is a high likelihood that a downward sword chop would glance along the boars teeth (similar to shingles on a roof) and the sword blade would chop into the shoulder of the opponent.

I invite your comments concerning this.  I need to be convinced that the boar's tooth "helmet" was a serious item of battlefield armor.  I believe that I may have seen several of these items of apparel in a museum Heraklion, Crete, but it was a long time ago.

The subject of missions in Baja, California.  That is an intriguing question.  At this time I am not sure that I wish to take it up.  I have studied the Baja from Jesuit times up through the gold and silver rushes that attracted miners from the U.S.

One story that is interesting and perplexing is the Lady in Blue.  I went into my data base to catch the entry that I put there.  (I read books and database salient items of interest so that I can quickly find the item and source reference.)

Agreda, Maria de Jesus de, Venerable -- "The Woman in Blue" who about the year 1630 appeared to Indians in the Southwest and preached to them, while physically she was physically in Europe.  Bolton/Rim of Christendom p 418.

This indeed is an interesting story.  There isn't much written about it, and Father Kino and Matheo Manje were perplexed by it.

Yours,
IHS333

[Jesus of Lubeck]

Hello Wopper and IH333,

Good to hear from you both and your input is most welcome, as is your bibliography � a germane and valuable contribution.  Much of what follows is information with which you are probably already familiar.  However, because this topic is not only interested in the folklore and legends of the southwest as they relate history and archaeology, but also the sources of these stories, a closer look at one of the authors, Walter Nordhoff, who appears in your bibliography as the author of The Journey of the Flame (1933), would be useful. But first a quick remark on the history of the English language versions of the legend that appeared in print prior to 1933.  Of this class, there is only a single example that I am aware of that reached national attention in the United States (if any HH member knows of other versions in English written prior to 1933, do not hesitate to bring this information into the discussion).

The lost mission legend likely took form during the Jesuit mission period.  However, English language versions of the story did not begin to appear in print until the early 20th century (I reserve the right to move this date back as further research indicates).  In 1908, a snippet of the legend appears in a work written by A.W. North titled The Mother of California.  This book was based on a trip that North made to the Baja peninsula in 1905-06.

The next important publication of the lost mission legend in English occurred with the 1933 publication of The Journey of the Flame.  The work was written by Walter Nordhoff under the nom de plum of Antonio De Fierro Blanco.  The Journey of the Flame is important for our purposes because this historical novel spawned a slew of early treasure hunting expeditions to the Baja peninsula prior to the outbreak of the Second World War.  Nordhoff�s background is worth delving into for a moment.

Walter Nordhoff was born in Brooklyn, New York, on May 27, 1858. He studied engineering at Yale University, and from there went West to work for a time in Nevada, a record of which appears in the 1880 census. He later moved back East to take a job with the New York Herald. It was about that time that he met Sarah Cope Whitall, and soon after, on October 6th, 1885, they were married in Germantown, Pennsylvania.

Nordhoff moved to England, where he took up assignment as London correspondent for the Herald (Nordhoff is often presented as an Englishmen by period reviewers).  While Nordhoff was living in London with his family, Walter's father, Charles, arranged the purchase of a large tract of land in Mexico through the Mexican International Company of Hartford. It was the Todos Santos tract in Baja California, fifty thousand acres of coastal land, just fifteen miles south of Ensenada, that included the Punta Banda Cape on its northwest corner.  In September of 1890, Nordhoff moved his family to Baja California in order to manage this huge estate.  Walter Nordhoff appears to have lived continuously on the Baja estate for the next eight years.  It is likely that this period of time in Baja Mexico served as the inspiration for his novel of 1933, The Journey of the Flame.

In contrast to much of the older Spanish language folklore concerning the lost mission motif, the Journey of the Flame specifically attributes the lost mission to the Jesuits.  According to Nordhoff�s version, the Jesuit Order receives advance notice that they are to be expelled from Spanish territory and preceded to strip their shrines across the width and breadth of New Spain of jewelry and gold.  This trove of treasure was then, according the Nordhoff�s version of the legend, shipped secretly across the Gulf of California to an unknown port in northern Baja California and thence conveyed to the Mission of Santa Ysabel at the base of an impassable cliff rising from sea level to a height of some 7000 feet on the desert side of the San Pedro Martir range.  Nordhoff alludes to the dark fate that awaited the native porters that transferred the treasure.  A landslide blocks the entrance to the mission.  The Jesuits, secure in the knowledge that their treasure is beyond the reach of the Spanish crown, retire into exile to await a later time when retrieving the treasure should prove feasible.  Nordhoff adds that his Jesuits, at the time of this return to New Spain, would seize both Californias and create in the process �a pure theocracy, without regard to Spain or our King.� (Journey of the Flame pp. 274-278)

Where does this bring our analysis?  Now this is still raw research that requires input from the HH community to hone more finely, but here are some points to follow up on:

First, can any versions of the lost mission legend be found in print in Spanish or English that attribute the lost mission to the Jesuits or any specific order?  For the spread of the English language version of the motif, this detail assumes great importance.

Second, what Jesuit, Franciscan, and Dominican missions or mission ruins are located on this vast 50,000 acre swath of Baja coastal land owned by Walter Nordhoff�s family?  Usually authors draw their inspiration from their surroundings.

Third, what was Nordhoff�s position during the Cristero Rebellion that deeply affected the relations between the Catholic Church and the Mexican civil government?


Image: photograph of Walter Nordhoff.

A note to IHS333: hello and your comments are most welcome.  I am not an expert by any stretch on Bronze Age weapon tactics.  I will say that the main interest I had in presenting the quote from the Iliad was sparked by Don Jose�s remarks in an earlier post.  In the case of the boar�s teeth helmet, the description in Homer is striking when compared to the artifacts.  The mutual re-enforcement and human depth that the Iliad gives to these artifacts and vice versa is worth contemplating.  In any event, my limited understanding of bronze edged weapons is that they were primarily thrusting weapons rather than slashing weapons.  The close combat techniques for using bronze edged weaponry evolved from the limitation of the alloy with respect to holding both form and edge during close combat.  In many Aegean cultures, the primary weapon was a thrusting spear, the secondary weapon, a bronze sword.  Often, a chariot borne warrior would also fight with an offensive weapon suite only and coordinate defense with his shield-bearer.  But I am moving out of my depth.  I will leave it to Administration�s resources to either amplify or correct these few statements I make here on Homeric warfare.  I am in complete accord with you IH333 that this type of helmet technology would be unlikely to protect one�s head facing Iron Age edged weapons and close-combat tactics.  The boar�s head helmet, incidentally, fell completely out of fashion with the great interruption of Mediterranean Civilization in the period following 1250 BC, a period of historical darkness that brought on the Iron Age in that region.  But, returning to our subject of the interplay between legend, history, and archaeology, this is precisely why the continued survival of this Bronze Age artifact in Homer�s Iliad (there is an appearance of a boar�s tusk helmet in the Odyssey as well) is so important.  The Iron Age version contains numerous Bronze Age references embedded within the work. 

Thank you very much for the reference on the Blue Lady.  It may take some time but I will see if anything comes to light, IHS333.

Very Best Regards,

Lubby

[bahamawrecker]

Hi Lubby,

Splendid writing.

Legends and History?

Can we turn legends into history?  I believe we could, with the help of archaeology.
 
I will try to post a few quick comments about the legend of Eldorado in spite of being short on time. After all, I opened this Pandora�s box.
First let me explain why my presence on the forum is somewhat erratic. I live in paradise. The downside is that we have power failures several times per day, and sometimes lasting several days. A few days ago we had a bit of rain, 250mm in 2 hours, so the rivers overflow and we have water knee deep in five places where the rivers cross our road. Now, my mule (Nissan Frontier 4WD) is perfectly capable of handling that, but it does not entice me to leave home more than absolutely needed. In paradise we have an Internet connection over the Cell phone. It is very slow and very expensive. This means that I never have the time I would like, to visit the forum.

Now, about legends:

In my humble opinion, a legend consists of a lot of subjective thought, surrounding a small nucleolus of truth. How can we extract this truth?
I don�t pretend to be very scientific in this endeavor, but I will make a solid effort to stay objective.
In trying to extract the grain of truth from the Eldorado legend, I analyze each piece of information and classify it as possibly True or False. My criteria for this, is cross references when available, and personal observations and common sense if nothing better is available. Part of the common sense approach, are several �filters� on the sources of information.

Some of them are:

Filter �T� for �Torture�.

We know for a fact, that the Europeans used torture to entice the Amerindians to reveal the sources of gold. Common sense tells us that under torture, the victim will try to guess what the torturer wants to hear and respond accordingly. Thus, we can classify a good part of the legends written down by the Europeans into this category.

Filter �GF�, for �Gold Fever�.

I believe that we can safely consider 99% of the �Conquistadores� as well as most Treasure Hunters to be under the spell of this fever. We also know for a fact that the gold fever distorts the vision and rationale of the affected to a considerable degree. Any account written under its influence will be affected.

It is my understanding that, at least during the earlier part of the 16th century, when the first reports of the Eldorado legend appeared, the original people living in the geographical region in question, were not affected by gold fever. My rationale for this is that to them, gold in itself had no value. They were happy to trade it for trinkets. This seemed to have been different with the Incas, where gold had religious meaning. I am not sure of this, it is possible that even there, the meaning was attached to an artifact representing a religious symbol and not the metal in its un-�worked form.
Filter �I� for �Ignorance�.
Many accounts written by explorers suffer from lack of knowledge. The writers could only write about, or describe what they could understand. The same applies to us when we try to interpret their writings. To understand what has been written 4 or 500 years ago, we have to learn as much of possible about the writers, their level of education and their lives and then we have to try to see the world through their eyes. Not only that, we also have to try to feel their state of mind.

Lets jump in to the legend of Eldorado at the time of Sir Walther Raleigh, about the year 1500. He has been a major factor in divulging this fabulous story.  We know that he was in jail at the time of writing and trying to safe his neck.
 
I look at his tale, as 3 different legends that he combined into one.

1.   Eldorado, the �Golden Man�, described within a religious ceremony. Raleigh got this information from Spaniards, who got it from the indigenous people, under torture. Findings in Lake Guatavita seem to confirm the legend. However, the geographical location of the lake in the North West of the South American Continent, does not coincide with the geographical location of Raleigh�s country of gold, which is repeatedly stated to be in the Guyanas, that is, the North East of the continent.
Raleigh tries to make the lake Parima, in the Guayanas, to become the lake of the �Golden man�.
Lake Parima is a legend in itself. There is no such lake today, but it appeared    on the maps during over 100 years, slowly shrinking.
Did it ever exist?
There is one more discrepancy with the legend of the �Golden Man� in the Guyanas.  All historians coincide that the aboriginal peoples of the North East of the South American continent had no places of worship or any highly developed religious customs. 
In general, Raleigh�s geography was reasonably accurate for his time.  I consider his mistake to be caused by �wishful thinking� or maybe his desperation to justify the failure of his exploring trip.

I ran out of time. There is much more to the story and the legend that I will try to post in days to come.
2.   Eldorado, the �City of Gold�
3.   Eldorado, the �Country of Gold�

Bahamawrecker

[Wopper]

Howdy History Hunters

Lubby, thank you for the great information about Walter Nordhoff, and his family history. It was just as much informative, as it was interesting. You did a very good job!

When it comes to talking about lost Jesuit missions, I believe there is some need of clarification. When you talk about a Jesuit mission, most people automatically assume that you are talking about a church. That is a misconception. A Jesuit mission was basically all encompassing, and included the houses, school, orchard, crops, ranch, livestock, and of course the church. Part of the Jesuit mission was also to reduce or induct the Indian's into the mission system, and make good Catholics out of them. One needs to keep in mind when referring to a Jesuit mission, it could mean a number of things. Maybe the legend you mentioned about the Jesuit Mission of Santa Ysabel located at the base of an impassable cliff, is not what one would automatically think it is. Maybe, just maybe, it was the Jesuit mission to hide the treasures of their missions at a site named Santa Ysabel. Just some food for thought.

Bahamawrecker, a very good post. You did a great job lettering the chaff that is always found with the wheat, which must be separated in order to get to the grain. I take it you live on the Baja. I hope to make a trip that way some time in the future, and would love to visit your paradise.

Sincerely,

Wopper

[Jesus of Lubeck]

Hello Bahama and Wopper,

Thank you both for your comments as well as your contributions to the topic, which are valued and welcome.  I look forward to more of the same and will certainly pick up the thread on Bahama's El Dorado introduction.  As for Wopper, thank you for the clarification on the mission.  This is just a quick note.  I am working out a post for IHS333 and the Lady in Blue (which I am certain he knows more than he lets on).  I will see how my treatment stands up to criticism.

Very Best Regards,

Lubby

[Wopper]

Howdy History Hunters,

I have in my map collection a copy of a map done in 1757, by the Jesuits for the King of Spain. I thought I would post some scans of it, because I felt it would be just as much helpful as it would be interesting to this topic. The map clearly shows S. Ysabel near the northern end of the Gulf. Charles W. Polzer S.J. dismissed it as nothing more than a name for a watering place, which very well could be the case. But I think it is important to note that another watering place that is named just to the south, explicitly states "water of S. Rafael," while others that remain unnamed just state "watering place."

Sincerely,

Wopper

[Jesus of Lubeck]

Hello HH Members and Guests,

Congratulations to you Wopper on your HH August Contest Win.  It is the hard-fought contests that yield the sweetest victories.  Well Done and I hope you do not rest on your laurels.  Thank you for posting the 1757 map.  There are several important elements of its cartography worth noting and I look forward to further comments on the subject.

Here is a basic rundown on the Lady in Blue legend with an emphasis on the Spanish chain of documents that molded the legend as it took root in the southwest.

IN 1630, the custodio of the New Mexico missions, fray Alonso de Benavides, informed the king of Spain and the Council of the Indies that God had marked the work of his Franciscan missionaries with special approval. Accounts had reached Benavides about a Franciscan nun, Mar�a de Jes�s de �greda, living in Spain, who had traveled in spirit to the New World hundreds of times to instruct Indians in Christianity. Also recently, Indians to the east of New Mexico (later Texas) had approached Benavides's friars to request a mission for their people, telling of a "Lady in Blue" who had appeared in the sky and told them to seek salvation from the missionaries.1 Benavides concluded that these events were miraculous. (Barr, 2004)

IHS333 was kind enough to point this topic in the direction of the Lady in Blue legend.  Not being more than superficially familiar with the legend, I had no idea how very large and varied the body of literature, both religious and secular, that has grown around this legend (and to some, a spiritual phenomenon).  These comments are general in nature and are not intended to do more than summarize some points of this subject confined to the spectrum of how the Lady in Blue legend evolved and became transmitted.  There will be two parts of this post.  The first touches on Peninsular Spanish influences on the legend and its transmission.  The second part will deal with indigenous tribal influences on the legend�s development.

In a quick survey of Agredan literature as it touches on the Southwest, the single most important figure in the transmission of the Lady in Blue legend is Franciscan Father Alonso de Benavides, who wrote a series of important communications during the first quarter of the 17th century that influenced that transmission of the Lady in Blue legend and gave the legend important spiritual legitimacy.   At the time the Franciscan and Jesuit Orders were locked in fierce competition over the establishment and claim to new mission territories in the Viceroyalty of New Spain.  This conflict, at once religious and political, played itself out across a wide front in both the Iberian courts and the Vatican. Alonso de Benavides� written communications on Maria de Agreda�s visions, read in this context, are illustrative of how a spontaneous and individual religious experience was harnessed by ecclesiastical forces, imbued with a spiritual legitimacy, and used to influence historical events.

The first of Alonso de Benavides� documents was his Memorial of 1630 to King Philip IV of Spain.  This document was a lucid report of conditions in New Mexico and was widely read by the King, his court, and a wider audience of Religious in Iberia.  Notably, the 1630 Memorial does not treat the subject of Maria de Agreda and her visions.  However, Benavides, after personal communication with the Abbess, drafts a letter to the Archbishop of Mexico in 1631 legitimizing Maria�s visions.  Additionally, in 1634, Benavides drafts a second memorial (the 1634 Memorial) addressed to the Pope.  This final redaction results in a presentation of Maria de Agreda�s visions supported by the incorporation of earlier written documentation from the Archbishop of Mexico that Benavides uses to buttress and further legitimize Maria de Agreda�s religious experience.

Before journeying further into the basic outline of the Spanish origin and transmission of the Lady in Blue legend, it is necessary to present a short sketch of the biographies of the two central figures on the Spanish side of this discussion: Fray Alonso de Benavides O.F., and Maria de Agreda, Abbess of a Franciscan Conceptionist Convent (the Conceptionist habit was gray with a blue overgarment).

Fray Benavides was born in the Azores Islands in the last quarter of the 16th century (as best anyone has been able to work out). In 1598 he journeys to New Spain and, pursuing a religious vocation enters the Franciscan order.   Records of the order indicate that he rose quickly.  Between 1626 and 1629, Fray Benavides was padre custodio of the Franciscan Order in New Mexico as well as serving as the first commissioner of the Inquisition for this area of Spain�s New World empire.  This suggests that he was articulate and acquainted with inter-order competition and Habsburg court politics.  It is perhaps within the context of inter-order rivalries between the Franciscans and the Jesuits that the Iberian aspect of the Lady in Blue legend took form.

Fray Benavides served as padre custodio of New Mexico for a relatively short period of time when compared with his predecessor in that post, Fray Estevan Perea.  Some scholars speculate that this short tenure in office as padre custodio by Benavides was a period of preparation and observation of the New Mexican frontier.  In 1629, Benavides was transferred to Spain where he arrived in 1630.  There he delivered a report (the memorial) to the minister-general of the Franciscan order and King Philip IV. 
 
Maria de Agreda was born Maria Fernadez Coronel in the village of Agreda in 1602.  This village lies in the province of Burgos in the middle of the Iberian peninsula. It was while serving as an abbess of a Conceptionist convent in Agreda that the famous visions, whereby the Lord transported her to New Mexico to proselytize among the native tribes occurred. According to her first biographer, a Franciscan priest named Ximenez Samaniego, a witness present at Maria�s death.  The Ximenez biography was written shortly thereafter.  In this work, Ximenez recorded the onset of Maria�s visionary revelations regarding the Indies and New Mexico:

One day after receiving the Holy Sacrament, transported in ecstasy, the Lord showed her all the world�Among such a variety as the Lord showed her who did not profess the faith,�His Majesty declared to her that the creatures who had the least disposition to be converted, and to whom His mercy was most inclined were the Heathen of New Mexico and of other remote kingdoms in that region...

This revelation was repeated , the Lord showing her still more distinctly those provinces  which His Majesty desired to be converted� She observed the appearance of the people, and their need for ministers who might instruct them in one faith.

On one occasion� the Lord unexpectedly transported her in an ecstasy.  Without perceiving the means, it seemed to her that she was in another and different region and climate, and in the midst of�those Indians who, on other occasions, had manifested themselves to her by means of disembodied visions.  It seemed that�she saw them with her own eyes, and noted the temperature of the land�Preaching her faith to those people, it seemed to her that she was actually preaching�in her own Spanish language; and that the Indians understood her as if it were their own;� and the Indians were converted and she catechized them.

�On these occasions it seemed that by the efficacy of her preaching�an extensive kingdom and its prince were converted to His holy faith.  I seemed�that while passing through New Mexico she saw and became acquainted with the religious of Saint Francis who were working in that conversion�she counseled the Indians to send someone t go in search of these religious�so that the religious might baptize them and send workers (Samaniego 1759:132-33 from English translation in Hackett 1934:132-33:cited in text by Hickerson).

Such is a description of the type of vision experienced by Maria de Agreda according to her biographer, again it should be noted that this version was set to paper shortly after 1665 and stands at some three decades removal from the immediate events discussed here.

Benavides, it should be remembered, was traveling from New Spain to Europe in 1630 and did not meet with Maria de Agreda until April of 1631, some six months or so after his appearance at the Habsburg court.  This meeting took place after the Memorial of 1630 was written and some scholars believe that the 1630 Memorial circulated widely enough to come into Maria�s hands.

By 1631, and after this interview with Maria de Agreda (by which interview should be understood to be on the order of an inquest), Benavides clearly sees advantages to be gained by legitimizing and propagating the visions and claims of Maria de Agreda.  The New World implications foremost in his mind in the Spring of 1631, Benavides quickly draws ink to his quill and pens a letter to the Franciscans operating in New Mexico presenting the jist of Maria�s visions. Rumors concerning Abbess Maria�s spiritual transportations to New Spain�s northern frontier provinces were already circulating among the newer Franciscans arriving into the Viceroyalty from Europe in the late 1620s, but these visions had yet to receive official authentication from the Doctors of the Church or the Inquisition. The Archbishop of Mexico, however, thought Maria de Agreda�s visions important enough to investigate on the ground in New Mexico.  Accordingly, he drafted instructions to then padre custudio of New Mexico (Benavides predecessor) Father Estevan Perea, who was leading new Franciscan missionary recruits north in 1629, that careful attention should be paid to any sign shown by the native tribes of knowledge of the Catholic faith and �in what manner and by what means our Lord has manifested it.� (Hickerson, 1990)   Receipt of Benavides� letter discussing is interview and authentication of Maria de Agreda�s religious experiences galvanized the Franciscans in Mexico and had an immediate effect on how interactions between the Spanish expeditions and the native tribes interpreted each others viewpoints during contact.  More of this aspect will be discussed in part two of this post.

Meanwhile in Europe, Benavides lost little time in translating of Maria de Agreda�s religious experience into political capital serving the aims both himself and his order.  The worldly advantages of propagating Maria de Agreda�s visions were twofold:

1.   Fray Alonso de Benvanides was ambitious to receive the appointment to a Bishopric.  Along these lines, he traveled to Rome and petitioned Pope Urban the VIII to create a Bishop�s See out of the New Mexican territories under Franciscan missions control.  To this end, Benavides drafts a second Memorial (hereinafter the Memorial of 1634) which is presented to the Vatican.  In this 1634 Memorial, the visions of Maria de Agreda play a significant, prominent, and amplified role.  Benavides uses Maria�s visions as a means to identify the Will of God to Christianize these New Mexican lands and thus support and validate his petition to have the Papacy create a New Mexican Episcopate.

2.   Fray Alonso de Benvanides uses the visions of Maria de Agreda to cement the Franciscan Order�s claim to New Mexico as its special divinely ordained province of missionary activity.  Maria�s visions are interesting in that a specific order is stressed as carrying out the missionary work.  The political issue is clear, forestall any Jesuit activity or claims in the New Mexican area.


In the Memorial of 1634, Benavides incorporates the 1629 Letter of Instructions from the Archbishop of Mexico to Father Estevan Perea.  Notably, the Archbishop�s letter does not mention Maria de Agreda by name or directly discuss her visions. Yet Benavides sees in this an opportunity to introduce the Abbess' visions into the context and structure of his argument to petition the Papacy for the creation of a Bishopric carved from these tribal lands in New Mexico.  Lands containing a native flock already visited, converted, and catechized by a sister of the Franciscan Order.  Because Benavides relies on the less than direct 1629 letter of Mexico�s Archbishop, he is at pains to discuss (interpolate) in the 1634 Memorial that the Archbishop�s letter was really a discrete recognition of Maria de Agreda�s spiritual visitations and proselytizing among the native groups comprising the northern territories.  According to Benavides, what the Archbishop�s letter seeks to authenticate is the oral tradition (contemporary rumor) circulating among both the Spanish Religious and the indigenous groups concerning the appearance of a mysterious Lady in Blue who preaches among the northern tribes the tenants of the Catholic faith.

This then is a basic summary of the Spanish Franciscan influences and sources (along with a document time line) that shaped the Lady in Blue legend as it began to circulate among the population of New Spain�s northern frontier in the first quarter of the 17th century.  Part two will discuss the sources and influences within the indigenous cultures of northern New Spain that also shaped and gave life to the Lady in Blue legend in the American southwest and Mexican north.
 
Mary of Agreda and the Southwest United States
William H. Donahue
The Americas, Vol. 9, No. 3. (Jan., 1953), pp. 291-314.

The Visits of the "Lady in Blue": An Episode in the History of the South Plains, 1629
Nancy P. Hickerson
Journal of Anthropological Research, Vol. 46, No. 1 (Spring, 1990), pp. 67-90

A Diplomacy of Gender: Rituals of First Contact in the "Land of the Tejas"
Juliana Barr
The William and Mary Quarterly, Vol. 61, No. 3. (Jul., 2004), pp. 393-434.

[bahamawrecker]

Lubby and Wopper,  thanks for the encouragement.

Wopper, no I don�t live in the Baja. I live at the door to Eldorado, the country of gold.

I will have to make this post very short. Hopefully I find more time later to elucidate.

Ok then, back to Raleigh�s  �Eldorado the Country of gold�. 

Raleigh never pretended to have penetrated the country of gold. He got up river on the Orinoco, as far as the rapids that were later known as Angostura. By this time the rain season had started and the Orinoco became �very boisterous�. 
Raleigh then collected much information from the local Indian tribes.  They told him of the country of gold, where the gold was plentiful. It was just a few days travel further, but during the rain season it was impossible to travel.
I have read this same story many times.  It sounds just like what the Indians told to the early explorers over and over again, starting with Columbus himself.
If we look at this information under the �T� filter, we understand the reason.  However,  Raleigh believed them and wrote it down with many details in his �Discovery�.  This can be downloaded from the Internet from: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/modsbook.html

I also recommend to look at the Google Earth satellite view of the Guyana Highlands. You can find many beautiful photos of the landscapes.   

Only few people believed Raleigh in England, but several expeditions tried to find the country of gold in the Guyanas during the next century.

None of them found any gold. They did not even find the Lake Parima.

Why? This is where you can apply a good dose of Filter �I� for ignorance.  It is absolutely amazing that they did not find any gold. In fact there is gold just about everywhere. And it is alluvial gold, scattered over the surface of the country and in the rivers.

Some legends say that Jesuits had been doing some secret mining in the 18th century, but only about 1850 the existence of gold became known.

I read Raleigh�s story many years ago and did not give it a great amount of credit. That is, until I moved to the region and became interested in its past.
I read Raleighs �Discovery� again, as well as Humboldt�s analysis of the story. Now, Humboldt is known as a great scientist.  He dissected Raleigh�s story, applying his personal detailed geographical knowledge of the region and discarded it as not credible.

But� what about all the gold that is being found there nowadays?   How much?  Statistics say that the yearly extraction amounts to 200 metric tons per year. That is a bit more than 6,000,000 ounces of gold per year. And this extraction has gone on, maybe not at the same scale, but anyway, for over 100 years.

I think that the name �Country of Gold� is justified.

Actually, on the political map, the �Country of Gold� spreads over Venezuela, Surinam, Guyana, French Guyana, and the States of Amapa and Roraima in Brazil.

So where do I stand now, with my clever analyses?  My �Filters�?  So Raleigh was right after all.

RALEIGH�S COUNTRY OF GOLD EXISTS

If his country of gold exists, does that mean that his �City of Gold� exists also? 
On the shore of Lake Parima?
Did Lake Parima exist?
Where was it?
Raleigh gives a geographic description. The maps from the 17th century show it. Could it be that, if knowing how and where to look for it, it could be found?

What about  ��ldorado the Golden Man� ?  The religious ceremony? Could it be that I misinterpreted there too? Is it true that the peoples of the North Eastern part of the Continent did not have places of worship and religion?
   
Some time ago I sent friends of mine on a exploratory trip into the country of gold. They came back with gold nuggets that they found with their metal detectors. They also brought back some stone tools from prehistoric times.  (thank you Lubby for doing research on them).

There is something strange about these tools.  They are formed out of very hard rocks, not by chipping, but by polishing.
I tried to shape some of these rocks, they are plentiful in my paradise.  I find that it would take weeks or months to shape such tools by grinding them against each other.

However, if I smash two rocks together, I get instant stone knifes that are extremely sharp.  (see photos below)
My interpretation of this is that these polished stone tools were not working tools, but  religious symbols.  This could possibly justify the enormous amount of work invested into them.
 
Religious symbols in the country of gold? 

I will talk about the �City of Gold�  some other time.

Information extracted from Sir Walter Raleigh�s account: 
The Discovery Of Guiana
The Discovery of the large, rich, and beautiful Empire of Guiana; with a Relation of the great and golden City of Manoa, which the Spaniards call El Dorado, and the Provinces of Emeria, Aromaia, Amapaia, and other Countries, with their rivers, adjoining. Performed in the year 1595 by Sir Walter Raleigh, Knight, Captain of her Majesty's Guard, Lord Warden of the Stannaries, and her Highness' Lieutenant-general of the County of Cornwall.

[Wopper]

Howdy Lubby,

Thank you! Be rest assured that I will not rest on my laurels, rather I have every intention of keeping the Administrator off of his.

What a fantastic post. If part 2 is anything like part 1, I can't wait for part 2.

The insight you have put forward so far in part 1, sheds a whole new light on the legend of the Lady in Blue which I hadn't considered before. The question of ulterior motives on the part of the Franciscan Order comes greatly into play. Also I would like to point out that the apparition of the Lady in Blue, is quite similar to the apparition of the Virgin of Guadalupe almost a hundred years before in 1531. The Virgin of Guadalupe also had an outer cloak of blue!

Our Lady of Guadalupe, from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Here is a traditional account of the apparition of the Virgin of Guadalupe from Wikipedia.

According to Catholic accounts of the Guadalupan apparition, during a walk from his village to the city on December 9, 1531 Juan Diego saw a vision of a virgin at the Hill of Tepeyac. Speaking in Nahautl Our Lady of Guadalupe said to build an abbey on the site, but when Juan Diego spoke to the Spanish bishop, Fray Juan de Zumarrage, the prelate asked for a miraculous sign. So the Virgin told Juan Diego to gather flowers from the hill, even though it was winter, when normally nothing bloomed. He found Spanish roses, gathered them on his tilma and presented these to the bishop. According to tradition, when the roses fell from it the icon of the Virgin of Guadalupe appeared imprinted on the cloth.

Historians evaluate the reality of the apparitions by the sudden, extraordinary success of the evangelizing of the Indians in the decade of 1531-1541, which constitutes the most successful evangelization ever. In this short period close to ten million Indians adopted Christianity, contrasted with the previous decade in which rejection was the norm. Depression and apathy suddenly gave way to enthusiasm and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe
The second apparition in which the icon of the Virgin of Guadalupe appeared imprinted on Juan Diego's tilma, happened on December 12, 1531 three days after the first apparition. The feast day of the Virgin is celebrated each year on December 12th.


Etching by Jose Guadalupe Posada, depicting St. Juan Diego and the Virgin image miraculous imprinted on the cloth where he collected the roses.

The legend of the Virgin of Guadalupe, has been brought into question with modern science.

Norberto Rivera Carrera, Archbishop of Mexico, commissioned a 1999 study to test the tilma's age.  The researcher, Leoncio Garza-Vald�s, had previously worked with the Shroud of Turin. Upon inspection Garza-Vald�s found three distinct layers in the painting, at least one of which was signed and dated. He also said that the original painting showed striking similarities to the original Lady of Guadalupe found in Extremadura Spain, and that the second painting showed another Virgin with indigenous features. Finally, Garza-Vald�s indicated that the fabric on which the icon is painted is made of conventional hemp and linen, not agave fibers as is popularly believed. The photographs of these putative overpaintings were not available in the Garza-Vald�s 2002 publication, however. Gilberto Aguirre, a San Antonio optometrist and colleague of Garza-Vald�s who also took part in the 1999 study, examined the same photographs and stated that, while agreeing the painting had been tampered with, he disagreed with Garza-Valdes' conclusions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe

When you take into account the effect that the legend of the Virgin of Guadalupe had on the Indian's conversion to Christianity, one can't help but wonder if the Franciscan's didn't get the Idea for the Lady in Blue from it. In doing so, they could have used it with a twofold effect. They would not only be able to pacify the Indian's, they would gain exclusive control over the area in question effectively acing the Jesuits out.

Sincerely,

Wopper

[Wopper]

Howdy bahamawrecker,

I should have known that you were somewhere other than the Baja by your user name, "bahamawrecker."

I want to thank you for posting your story dealing with the legend of El Dorado. So far I think it is great, and I'm eagerly waiting to hear about the �City of Gold.�

Sincerely,

Wopper

[Jesus of Lubeck]

Hello Bahama and Wopper,

Thank you both for your very informative comments.  Bahama, your discussion of Raleigh's  Country of Gold is a wonderful touchstone for the unfolding discussion, the Portals of El Dorado, our Golden Man.  These legends helped to draw Europeans into the New World and in this sense influenced events.  The wealth that flowed out of the Americas was an equally weighty influence on history.  This topic is groping for a balance between legend, history, and archaeology and it will be challenging to make the attempt.  Bahama, I look forward, as Wopper does, to your next exploration of the Country of Gold.   Your on-the-scene experience adds much to the discussion.  I am slowly moving southward and hope to meet up with you in the late 17th or early 18th century.

Wopper, thank you for the comments introducing Our Lady of Guadalupe into this exploration of myth, legend, and folklore.  The motif of the Virgin of Guadalupe is similar to the Lady in Blue in many respects; however, as you are also no doubt aware, there are significant differences worth noting. 

The Franciscan-Jesuit rivalry is still only an hypothesis.  In the Lady in Blue post it serves as the thesis upon which I chose to hang the narratives reported in the primary documents.  Much work still is required to coax more support for this thesis from the sources.  For the moment, since this topic is an ongoing rough discussion, the Franciscan-Jesuit battle for the hearts and minds of the New World's indigenous populations will serve duty as a thesis until a well-supported argument either confirms or refutes the idea.  Hopefully more data will be brought forward.

One last quick note: I have undertaken to serve as moderator of the Evidence Board.  In this respect, certain historical and archaeological problems will be introduced and explored on the themes of fakes, forgeries, and hoaxes that have influenced archaeological and historical thought (and in some cases spilled into the political realm).  So I would invite those members who find this type of analysis intriguing to contribute.

Again thank you for your comments.

Best Regards,

Lubby

[IHS333]

Greetings, Respected Lubby:

I have read twice the information that you posted about the Lady in Blue.  Your writing is excellent and the subject matter is very interesting.  For what it is worth, I have dipped into my data base of extracted materials to provide to you pertinent information sourced to Padre Kino, S.J. and the Spaniard military officer, Mateo Manje.  The quoted information are passages from the book, �Rim of Christendom�, by Herbert Bolton, pages 407-408, and 417-418.  I had to include the information from pages 407-408 so that the year 1699 was properly affixed.

Quote

[Pages 407-408]
   Kino�rode to San Juan, and got permission from Jironza to take Manje with him as a secular witness. � As a missionary companion Kino enlisted Father Adam Gilg.  For equipment he took servants and ninety pack animals.  He assembled eight loads of provisions, eighty horses, and ornaments for saying Mass.  Vaqueros went ahead driving thirty-six cattle with which to establish a new ranch at Sonoita as a base for northwestward explorations.  Of the great tour now made Kino wrote a short account and Manje kept a detailed diary.
   Leaving Dolores on February 7, 1699, Kino and his party crossed the sierra to San Ignacio, where he obtained more provisions and horses from Father Campos.

[Pages 417-418]
   The natives told another interesting tale.  As Manje understood it, it was the ancient story of The Woman in Blue, here somewhat corrupted and coarsened.  The old men "said that when they were boys, a beautiful white woman carrying a cross came to their lands dressed in white, gray, and blue, clear to her feet, her head covered with a cloth or veil.  She spoke to them, shouted, and harangued them in a language which they did not understand.  The tribes of the Rio Colorado shot her with arrows and twice left her for dead.  But, coming to life, she left by the air. ....  A few days later she returned many times to harangue them."  The Woman in Blue had met better treatment in New Mexico and Texas.  Five days previously Kino and Manje had heard the same tale in the village of Sonoita, but did not believe it.  But now, says Manje, "since these people repeat the same story, and the places are so far apart, we surmised that perhaps the visitor was the Venerable Maria de Jesus de Agreda.  It says in the account of her life that about the year 1630 she preached to the heathen Indians of this North America and the borders of New Mexico.  And sixty-eight years having passed since then, to the present year in which we are told this story by the old men, who from the countenances appear to be about eighty years old, it would be possible for them to remember it."  So the tale seemed plausible.
   One point in the story required a comment.  "We only note the addition that they did not understand her.  Now God, who performed a greater miracle by which she was conducted to these regions from Spain, and who does not do things imperfectly, would have given her the gift of tongues so that she might be understood.  But as the accessory follows the principal, it must have been she.  And .... since they then were boys, they would have little understanding of what she was teaching time. ....
   Kino and Manje inquired likewise regarding the white people--"gente blanca"--in the interior, about whom the Pimas had told during a previous expedition.  Yes, the Yumas had heard of them.  They said that "toward the north and the seacoast lived clothed white men who sometimes come armed to the Rio Colorado and trade a few goods for buckskins. ....  We do not know whether or not they may be the Spaniards from the ships which in the time of the first viceroys of Mexico were sent to discover lands and nations and ho never returned, but being wrecked near land, with planks and by swimming came out and settled; or whether they are Japanese or Chinese;.... or whether they are foreign heretics who may be settled among and living with Indian women. ....  These are matters worthy of investigation."  Unquote

Contrary to the apparently Franciscan-friendly information that you provided, Jesuit Kino and Spaniard Manje provided countering information, through Herbert Bolton the historian.  Bolton's writing clearly states that the Indians, 1) could not understand a word that the Woman in Blue said, and 2) they shot her with arrows, and supposedly killed her for a time.  Hence, this Jesuit/Spanish version does not appear to provide license for the Franciscans to lay claim to teaching the Indians.

Please believe me, I am not being critical of your writing.  I provide this information as part of an analytical process that seeks to sort out the sometimes perplexing facts, points, and counter-points that we must deal with.  We are dealing with people and their writings, viewed through an opaque fabric of time a fabric that has been interlaced with politics, jealousy, the Church, and the vagaries of The Inquisition.  I do believe that the job of a paleontologist has to be easier and less convoluted than what we are forced to deal with in historical records.  Whereas a paleontologist may look at his latest excavation and think, "Yup, that ox was gored".  Whereas, we are confronted by a host of documentation and we wonder, "Hmmmm.  I wonder who's ox was gored, for how long, and why?"

Yours,
IHS333

[Jesus of Lubeck]

Hello IHS333,

Let me thank you very much for your comments and I hope you will give me license to work with this Kino-Manje variant of the Lady in Blue legend they collected in 1699 from the indigenous peoples with whom they came in contact (as this variant is related via historian Herbert Bolton). 

As for the writing, it is posted in this forum to invite constructive, well-supported, criticism and commentary of the kind so far made (here criticism does not carry negative connotation).  The exchange of ideas here in this topic are often written by our members during the first blush of analysis and criticism is often needed and, on my part, necessary aspect of developing a proper chain of evidence.

Your 1699 Lady in Blue variant is an important step in the development of the motif in Sonora and the Pimeria.  Moreover, unlike the the aspects of the Iberian Lady in Blue variant (which Bolton reports Kino using to compare against the indigenous variant he and Manje encountered), the southwest Lady in Blue variant gives additional information about the native groups and their attitudes to Iberian culture and Catholicism.  Again, IHS333, please continue your observations and contributions without hesitation.  I trust you will also view my comments in an equal light.

I am trying to finish part two of the Lady in Blue post as well as a post for the Evidence board.  One task that needs to be addressed with the Lady in Blue discussion is to identify each variant we come across and attempt to classify them.  So far there are two: an Iberian Franciscan variant validated by Benavides (Lady in Blue IF01-1631?) and an indigenous southwest variant reported by Kino-Manje (Lady in Blue ISW01-1699). I invite any and all comments on developing a  system of variant classification that can eventually fall under the rubric of the Aarne-Thompson Index discussed in the opening post of this topic.

Very Best Regards,

Lubby