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History's Hinge - 'Ain Jalut

[Bart]

Historians claim to have found fabled lost city
Aug 15 2006
Rin Simpson, Western Mail, Wales
 
WELSH historians believe they have uncovered the site of a 2,000-year-old city which they say is the most important location in ancient British history.

The Ancient British Historical Association (ABHA) claims that a field at Mynydd y Gaer near Pencoed is the fabled fortress city of King Caradoc I, or Caractacus, who fought the Romans between 42-51 AD.

The Roman leader at that time was the Emperor Claudius, immortalised by Derek Jacobi in the TV series and film I, Claudius, alongside Welsh actress Si n Phillips as his aunt Livia.

Historians Alan Wilson and Baram Blackett used old manuscripts to narrow their field of search and aerial photos obtained from Google Earth, which provides maps and satellite imagery, to find the exact spot.

Their findings have yet to be verified but the team are positive they have found the long lost site.

Mr Wilson said, "What we have is a clearly- defined walled city in exactly the place the records tell us it should be.

"The Welsh manuscripts and supporting records are always precise and allow us to make major progress in terms of identifying royal burial mounds, tombs, artefacts and more."

Tim Matthews, another member of the team, added, "We knew pretty much the area we were looking for and we knew that St Peter's Church nearby was an important meeting site and that it was at Caer Caradoc.

"So our area of search was limited to that area but because some land owners are less happy than others about people traipsing though their land access wasn't always easy.

"If you look at other ancient walled cities and what they may have been like you start to get an idea of the shape and the delineation and the patterning and you can see this is exactly what we're looking for."

Some experts have received the news with caution. A spokesperson at the Council for British Archaeology said, "Clearly it is very difficult to interpret early Welsh sources in relation to what is on the ground today.

"Although aerial photographs can be very revealing they can be very deceiving too. Without ground surveys and geophysical surveys to establish whether there were buried features, it would be difficult to say for certain whether it was an ancient site.

"That would be the next stage of investigation."

However the ABHA are sure of their findings.

Mr Matthews added, "With our research there's no theory and no speculation. You can read every manuscript, visit every site and touch every stone.

"You can go to places and see things - South Wales is littered with about 200 stones, dozens of grave mounds, tombs, all sorts of artefacts."

The group has gathered evidence from a number of ancient documents which they say refer to Caer Caradoc, including the Brut Tyssilio (684AD) and the later Gruffyd ap Arthur (1135AD).

Another reference is that of Teithfallt or Theodosius, who buried the 363 British noblemen murdered by treacherous Saxons at the notorious "Peace Conference" circa 456 AD at the Mynwent y Milwyr at Caer Caradoc.

According to the ABHA the Mynwent y Milwyr [monument to the soldiers] - is still to be found on the second highest point of Mynydd y Gaer above the possible site of the city of Caer Caradoc.

A third reference is that of the "Uthyr Pendragon", King Meurig or Maurice, who lies buried at the giant circle at Caer Caradoc.

There is, at this location, a gigantic ditch and mound shaped like a boat, next to St Peter's Church ruin not far from the site.

Mr Matthews believes that a historical discovery of this size could have important implications for the local economy.

"South Wales is packed with historical stuff and people just don't realise this.

"It's an area which is rich in ancient history you can actually touch.

"People love this kind of thing, they love it everywhere. People will come and see these things.

"It's regrettable that people in tourism agencies haven't done more."

When King Caradoc I, son of Arch, fought against the Romans between 42-51AD he was taking on a pretty big task.

At the time Rome was ruled by Emperor Claudius, or Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus to give him his full name.

The first Roman Emperor to be born outside Italy, Claudius nonetheless oversaw the expansion of his empire, including the conquest of Britain.

His life was immortalised by English writer Robert Graves in his novels I, Claudius (1934) and Claudius the God (1935), which were adapted into the 1976 BBC TV series and film I, Claudius starring Derek Jacobi and Si n Phillips, pictured right.

However, as with many of the great Roman leaders, Claudius met his death at the hand of someone within his own household, poisoned either by his taster or his doctor. He died on October 13, 54AD.

[Solomon]

An interesting story, indeed. Thanks, Bart, for bringing to our attention. One aspect which pleases me is that for once, Mynydd y Gaer is not being associated with the Arthurian legend.



Burial Place of Uther, Arthur or Athrwys?
http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/archaeology/mynydd.html

The Tradition: Medieval accounts of the Arthurian story, including Geoffrey of Monmouth's History of the Kings of Britain tell how Uther Pendragon was buried at or near a place called Caer Caradog (which Geoffrey mistakenly identifies as Sailsbury).
- http://www.britannia.com/history/arthur/mynydd.html



The Theory:  Blackett & Wilson claim that one of the two figures who went to make up "King Arthur" is to be identified with King Athrwys of Gwent & Glywysing. Athrwys (or Arthwys) was an historical monarch who is usually believed to have lived in the mid-7th century, though Blackett & Wilson push him back in time to the traditional Arthurian period at the beginning of the 6th century. They interpret "Uther Pendragon" as a title used by both Athrwys and his father, King Meurig ap Tewdr. Following numerous clues, they claim to have traced King Athrwys' burial-place first to a secret cave and then to a re-interment in the ruined Church of St.Peter-super-Montem on Mynydd-y-Gaer in Mid Glamorgan. The fort of Coedcae Gaer on a spur projecting south-eastward from here, is marked on old maps as Caer Caradog. Barber & Pykitt follow Blackett & Wilson, but take the more obvious line of claiming this as the burial-place of Meurig ap Tewdr alias Uther Pendragon.



Modern Archaeology:  Blackett & Wilson's hypothesis hit the headlines in 1983, and created much interest across the country. Unfortunately, this also brought notoriety to some of the places that they revealed to have Arthurian  associations; and the secret burial cave subsequently suffered a series of attacks by vandals. Concerned about the site that they believed to contain Arthur's last resting-place, Blackett & Wilson undertook a private excavation near the altar of St. Peter's Church. Here they claim to have discovered a large sword-shaped memorial which reads, in very faint 6th century style, "Rex Artorius fili Mauricius" (picture below - text outlined). Beneath this was a grave which they hurriedly sealed for future investigation.

Subsequent excavations undertaken in 1990 by Dr Eric Talbot of Glasgow University and a team of professional archaeologists, with the permission of the RCAHMW, have revealed that below the present church (of 13th century origin) lie the remains of at least two earlier building phases: A solid rectangular building covering an earlier "beehive" hermitage and rectangular paved (possibly) wooden erection. Significant finds included a small electrum cross bearing the inscription, "Pro Anima Artorius".

Possible Interpretations & Criticism:  Despite flying in the face of much accepted doctrine concerning a Real  King Arthur, many of Blackett & Wilson's arguments are extremely compelling. Coedcae Gaer may be translated as Forest of Cai Fort  which might sound like further evidence for their identification of the great High-King Arthur. However, whether one accepts this or not, the question still remains, "Did they find the Grave of King Athrwys of Gwent & Glywysing?" As the initial discovery of the memorial stone at St.Peter's Church there had no official supervision, this major find has thus come in for considerable criticism. It is true that Early Medieval Latin is so corrupt that it is difficult to claim any particular inscription to be incorrect, but still something like "Artorius Rex filius Mauricii" would read much better, and surely the letters are much too regular for a 6th century context. But then again, the corroborative cross inscribed "For the Soul of Artorius" recovered under better documented circumstances would indicate that the site is indeed associated with a man named Arthur, and the King of Gwent & Glywysing would seem the most likely candidate. The "beehive" cell would certainly indicate St. Peter's to be the site of a 5th or 6th century hermitage. The associated rectangular building was probably of similar date, though Blackett & Wilson's interpretation is a little more controversial.

[Sovereign]

Mention the fabled King Arthur and I'm off 
On a quest, that is.

Tintagel is, of course, the traditonal home of Arthur and recent excavations may support this.


The 'Artognov' inscription

This inscription, carved on an ordinary piece of slate, appears to have two inscriptions - or rather graffiti - in two different styles.

The earlier one, at the top right, is in better (= Roman period? ) lettering, and appears to read AXE.

The more interesting inscription is that below, more faintly visible.

Almost immediately under the earlier inscription is the word PATER (= Father) though this is almost invisible on screen.

The second line begins at the same level as PATER, but then curves underneath it. It reads COLIAVIFICIT:
- presumably FICIT is the Latin FECIT - 'made this'. The third line reads ARTOgNOV which may (or may not) be a form of Arthur. At the bottom right the words COLI and FICIT are repeated.

Image fullsize:
http://www.gla.ac.uk/archaeology/projects/tintagel/ttgartog.gif

[Solomon]

We could play around with this.

AXE is clearly missing at least one letter preceding.
Some possibilities:

faxe - torch
maxe - myself
naxe - spin

Then the next:

col.i              V      3 1 PRES PASSIVE INF
[to be live in]                     
colo, colere, colui, cultus
live in (place), inhabit; till, cultivate, promote growth; foster, maintain;

col.i              V      3 1 PRES PASSIVE INF
[to be |honored]                       
colo, colere, colui, cultus
|honor, cherish, worship; tend, take care of; adorn, dress, decorate, embellish;

Followed by:

avi - ancestors, grandfather, portent

Then:

ficit - he/she/it made it

Good fun, this 

[DeepDiver]

King Arthur was real? I thought that was just a story.

[Solomon]

King Arthur was real? I thought that was just a story.

It's been fashionable, in the late 20th century, to ridicule much, including the legendary Arthur. However, there is a basis of fact.

St Bede the Venerable wrote in his Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum ("Ecclesiastical History of the English People"), in AD 731, about the arrival of the English people (Saxons and Angles). Bede recorded that the Saxons and Angles were led by Hengist (Hengest) and Horsa, arrived in Britain (AD 449) at King Vortigern's invitation. Bede also recorded that Ambrosius Aurelianus, a Roman warlord, won his first decisive battle against the Angles at Badon Hills, in AD 493. Once again, Ambrosius Aurelianus appeared as the Briton resistance leader against the invaders, not Arthur.

According to the Welsh historian Nennius, who flourished in the early 9th century, this victory (at Badon Hills) was associated with Arthur. Nennius wrote in his Historia Brittonum that eleven other victories were ascribed to Arthur, but he was more of British warlord or general, than a king. Nennius pushed the date of the battle of Mons Badonicus, to a later time, in AD 516. This was the first mention of Arthur in the historical (psuedo-historial) source.

     Then it was, that the magnanimous Arthur, with all the kings and military force of Britain, fought against the Saxons. And though there were many more noble than himself, yet he was twelve times chosen their commander, and was as often conqueror. The first battle in which he was engaged, was at the mouth of the river Gleni. The second, third, fourth, and fifth, were on another river, by the Britons called Duglas, in the region Linuis. The sixth, on the river Bassas. The seventh in the wood Celidon, which the Britons call Cat Coit Celidon. The eighth was near Gurnion castle, where Arthur bore the image of the Holy Virgin, mother of God, upon his shoulders, and through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the holy Mary, put the Saxons to flight, and pursued them the whole day with great slaughter. The ninth was at te City of Legion, which is called Cair Lion. The tenth was on the banks of the river Trat Treuroit. The eleventh was on the mountain Breguoin, which we call Cat Bregion. The twelfth was a most severe contest, when Arthur penetrated to the hill of Badon. In this engagement, nine hundred and forty fell by his hand alone, no one but the Lord affording him assistance. In all these engagements the Britons were successful. For no strength can avail against the will of the Almighty.
   Historia Brittonum
by Nennius (c. AD 796)
Edited by J. A. Giles
Six Old English Chronicles
Henry G. Bohn, London, 1848

Nennius also recorded the episode of Vortigern and Hengist, but added a new person associated with Vortigern, Ambrosius. This Ambrosius is not the same Ambrosius Aurelianus mentioned in the works by Gildas and Bede. No. This Ambrosius was another name for the boy prophet, whom Geoffrey called Merlin. The story of Vortigern and Ambrosius (Merlin), the falling wall and the two sleeping dragons influenced Geoffrey's own work (see Vortigern in Life of King Arthur).

From the Annales Cambriae (the Annals of Wales) from 10th century, Arthur won the battle in Mons Badonicus (Mons Badon) and some other victories as well. The Annales also mentioned in a short passage that Arthur and Medraut (Mordred) falling in the battle of Camlann (537).
     AD 516    The Battle of Badon, in which Arthur carried the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ for three days and three nights on his shoulders and the Britons were the victors.
     AD 537    The battle of Camlann, in which Arthur and Medraut fell: and there was plague in Britain and Ireland.
   Annales Cambriae
Translated by Ingram, James
The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle
Everyman Press, London, 1912

As it can be seen, Geoffrey had derived his sources, mainly from Nennius, but also from the Gildas, Bede and the Annales Cambriae. However, Geoffrey set the year of Arthur's fall a little later on 542. Also, Geoffrey had cleverly turned Ambrosius Aurlianus into Aurelius Ambrosius, an uncle of Arthur.

None of this proves the existence of Arthur, which is why the above artefact has attracted so much interest.

Sol

[Diving Doc]

I've been fascinated by King Arthur since I first read "The Sword in the Stone" when I was in high school. I raised a sparrowhawk and named him Cully.

Doc

[Bart]

Barram and Blackett's work came to my attention years ago, especially their claim that ancient Welsh is a direct descendant of ancient Hebrew. Though some info re: this was on the web a few years ago, I have been unable to find more, I would especially like to see their work/s if anyone knows where to find it. I understand they have many hundreds/ thousands of hours in perusing the ancient documents, and are often at odds with the Oxford/ Cambridge historians whom they claim push the Anglo side of history at the 'expense' of negating/ destroying the Welsh aspecs of history.

If  I have any sort of misconceptions or errors here, please don't hesitate to jump in and enlighten me with other perspectives. It is exciting to finally find someone who can discuss this topic with historical fact without all the Arthurian legend nonsense.

[Solomon]

The pleasure is shared, Bart.

I have not been able to find anything substantial on the work of Barram and Blackett. If it's 'old', then the orthodox view could well have been tainted. How long ago was it that speaking Welsh was an offence? Not long, I think.

In general, I am wary of claimed Hebrew connections, as they seem to indicate a desire to link to the 'lost tribes' idea, Ham, or a refusal to admit that earlier peoples could have developed without outside assistance (European, or even aliens). In the case of Wales, we know of their ancestry through both history and DNA: they are a composite of Celt and pre-Aryan peoples. I am not aware of any reliable evidence that Hebrew speakers migrated to Wales. Any linguistic parallels can be explained by usage of Biblical words, perhaps via Greek.

Like you, I would like to study the work of Barram and Blackett. It would be interesting to see how their arguments stand up today.

[Diving Doc]

From what I know of the Welsh language and my education in the Classics I would think it more closely related to Celtic and Norse than Hebrew. Just my opinion, I am not that an accomplished linguist.

Doc

[Bart]

My mistake, the names are Alan Wilson and Barram Blackett, below is a part of some of their claims. They also say that Prince Madoc was a brother of Arthur.

As they say in Kentucky; "Cymru am bith".
News Wales (UK) ^ | 8/26/02 | Unknown

Posted on 08/29/2002 9:51:38 AM PDT by scouse

Did the Welsh discover America?

26/8/2002

A team of historians and researchers announced today that Radio Carbon dating evidence, and the discovery of ancient British style artefacts and inscriptions in the American Midwest, provide the strongest indications yet" that British explorers, under the Prince Madoc ap Meurig, arrived in the country during the 6th Century and set up colonies there.


Research team members have known the location of burial sites of Madoc's close relatives in Wales for some time, it emerged today; but they have decided to break their self-imposed silence in order that their research be fully known and understood. DNA evidence could provide vital new leads, they say.


"We have a mass of remarkable evidence," said British historian Alan Wilson, who has been working with Jim Michael of the Ancient Kentucke Historical Association since 1989. "As experts in ancient British history, we were approached by Jim and visited locations in the Mid West with him," he added.

Many of the grave mounds found in the American mid West, including those at Bat Creek, Tennessee, are ancient British in origin and design, Wilson said. Jim Michael added, "the stone tablet found at Bat Creek in 1889 included an inscription written in Coelbren, an ancient British alphabet known and recorded by historians and bards down the ages."

Wilson said that his research had brought him into contact with very similar alphabet inscriptions in Britain, Europe and the Middle East. "The components of the alphabet derive from the earliest days of the Khumric (Welsh) people," he added, "and were used along their migration routes to Wales in antiquity."

[Diving Doc]

Amazing,
keep adding to the post. Great stuff!

Doc

[Bart]

(Prince) Madoc In America
Native American Histories in the USA

Is truth stranger than fiction? Of course it is; it always has been One subject that has been debated for the last four hundred years was whether or not a Khumric-Welsh Prince called Madoc discovered America. Queen Elizabeth I was persuaded by her advisors that this was so and the Khumric-Welsh discovery was put forward as somehow giving England a prior claim in the political wrangles over first rights in the New World of the Americas.

No one ever thought to investigate the British records. Caradoc of Llancarfan wrote about it circa 1140. The information was made available to historian Richard Hakluyt. Immediately, things started to go wrong. Thinking that the Madoc story was a continuation of the same history, Hakluyt wrongly dated the voyages around 1170, which, of course, would be impossible as Caradoc of Llancarfan could not have recorded voyages which took place 14 years after he died!

A certain William Fleming, of Flemingston, near Cardiff, wrote poetry on the subject before Caradoc died, so the idea of voyages being made in 1170 becomes even weaker. In 1625, the Archbishop of Canterbury wrote a world history that stated that a Welsh Prince had discovered America and that, "King Arthur knew of it". This means voyages in the sixth century...

We know that "King Arthur" was, in fact, two people, which clears up the confusion of Polydore Vergil, historian at the Court of Henry VIII, relating to how "King Arthur" could defeat the Romans and also the Angles, the Saxons and others. "Arthur" would have been 250 years old. We know now, thanks to our King Arthur Research Project, that Arthur I was son of Magnus Maximus and led the British armies into Gaul in 383, defeated the Romans at Sassy-Soissons and chased the Roman Emperor Gratian to Lyons, where he executed him.

Arthur II, son of King Meurig, and a sixth generation direct male descendant of Arthur I, is the Sixth Century Arthur of legend.

What has this to do with America? Well, King Arthur, son of Meurig, had brothers and sisters. His brothers were Idnerth, who was murdered, St Pawl, known as "King Poulentius" in the Lives of Saints, Ffrioc, who was killed by Morgan Mwynfawr, and Madoc Morfran, the Cormorant. If we begin to research the sixth Century Madoc Morfran some extraordinary and startling facts emerge. For instance, the best recorded and defining event of "Dark Age" Britain was the devastation caused by debris from a comet, which struck in 562. Dr Victor Clube, Professor of Astrophysics at Oxford University, estimates this as having been an equivalent of a scatter of at least 100 Hiroshima-size atomic bombs. Unsurprisingly, great tracts of land were rendered uninhabitable and populations were wiped out, giving rise to subsequent literature relating to "The Great Wastelands" of Arthurian Britain, the "Yellow Plague" and the "Coming Of The Dragon". Seen in this context, all are symbolic of the same cataclysmic event?

A wealth of ancient manuscript evidence preserves the records of Madoc Morfran's voyages to Er-Yr meaning "towards that which is beyond", in search of new and habitable lands. Eryr means "land of eagles" and is usually attributed to Snowdonia in Gwynedd, but Er-Yr is, in fact, America. The records were obviously both religiously and politically incorrect; religion preached that God had created a safe, stable solar system and that stones could not fall from the heavens. The records tell us of a voyage by Madoc Morfran where he was believed lost and then "miraculously" re-appeared after ten years. No ship could sail west into the Atlantic for ten years and be supplied and return, so the event was truly remarkable. Madoc even brought a brown skinned man home with circa 572?

The records tell of the great new lands across the Western ocean and, in 573, Admiral Gwenon was sent out to check Madoc's star reckonings, which were doubted. Gwenon returned, and a fleet of 700 ships was assembled. It sailed for Er-Yr in 574. Anyone having a negative knee jerk reaction to all this would do well to keep an open mind. The evidence for Madoc, son of King Meurig, brother of King Arthur ll, is formidable, to say the least. So also is the surviving physical evidence in both Britain and in North America.

We have done a great deal of research into the question of the ancient British navy and its capabilities. (This will be published in the very near future and is unusually detailed. Much of the research was done in the early-mid 1980s. We have recently updated it with new and important hard evidence.) Welsh shipbuilders were the best in the business and many ancient Khumric Kings fought wars of movement that relied upon their being able to move large numbers of troops and vast quantities of supplies from place to place. Oddly enough, some modern historians claim that Arthur ll could not have fought such wars of movement because the Khumry were "primitive". And yet they are quite happy for other tribal groups, the Angles, the Saxons, the Vikings and others to have sailed long distances in ships of great speed and manoeuvrability. The double standard is immediately obvious but ships more ancient than those used by Arthur and his contemporaries have been located around Britain's shores. Indeed, ancient Khumric-British history is a story of two seaborne mass migrations!

Jim Michael, President of the Ancient Kentucke Historical Association, and one of our most active US supporters, takes up the tale: "In the early 1800s a Dr. Ward was summoned to the White Water area of Indiana to treat the people of a village of Native Americans who were dying of, perhaps, smallpox. One of the last surviving men, who called himself a king, asked if he could give Dr. Ward some sacred information. He told Ward that the member of the tribe who was to have received this "Lleni Llenape" information was dead, and there was no one left to pass it on to. He then handed him 148 sticks each of which had carving upon it."

"Dr Ward later gave these sticks to Professor Constantine Rafinesque of Transylvania College. Rafinesque and Eli Lilly went back to the tribal area to get more information on the history, called the "Wallam Ollam". They met with several of the remaining elders and learned that there was a chant that went with each stick. One of the sticks told of a great flood, and another of the creation myth. The remaining sticks told what happened when different kings were leading their people. It appeared to be a chronology of their tribal leadership. Eli Lily published the Wallan Ollam in book form and gave every member of the Indiana Historical Society a copy."

"The bards of Britannia also recorded all the births and deaths of nobility on sticks, and on special occasions they brought them out into public and sang their story to all. It is very hard to believe that two historical record systems could be independently invented. Of course, the two men had a bit of trouble understanding the wording but they did the best they could to write down what they heard."

Sounds crazy? Not really; the best part is that the Delaware histories tell of a great and powerful nation of "White men" who came to the Kentucky and Indiana regions in antiquity and that only an unprecedented alliance of all the Mid Western and Eastern tribes was able to fight against them. Had Rafinesque and Lilly known that Gwallam Oll-means "The Organization of Everyone", and that Lleni Llenape means "Secret Knowledge", in the Khumric-Welsh language, then things would have been rather different.

When we realised the massive significance of this information we formed a transatlantic partnership; researchers, historians and supporters in the USA joined us in the early 1990s. Several exchange visits and lectures tours resulted. Alan Wilson travelled to the USA in 1993-4, lectured in colleges and universities, appeared on TV and told the Americans about the Khumric side of the story. The work continues today and, we were encouraged by the publication of The Holy Kingdom (May 2002) in the USA by Invisible Cities Press, which will give interested American readers the correct historical background to both King Arthurs and more besides.

We now know who led the 700-ship expedition to America; the records say it was Arthur II ap Meurig, along with his brother Madoc Morfran and brother-in-law Ammwn Ddu. This, we should point out, is only the beginning?

For political reasons, Humphrey Llwyd and Richard Hakluyt invented a Madoc sailing in 1170 instead of 562; they were only 600 years out! Their fiction made Madoc a son of Owen Gwynedd (an ancestor of Elizabeth I) instead of the copiously well-recorded Madoc son of King Meurig. Wrong family but suitable ancestry for Elizabeth I of England. Then they moved Madoc from his native South East Wales to North West Wales. Wrong territory but very suitable for ancestors of Elizabeth I of England. The result? A deliberately targetted, early political and religious attack upon our immensely valuable, well documented and provable British history.

But that's OK. We are following in the tradition of truth set in motion by Bardic scholars in ancient times. Their work was understood, researched and republished from the earliest times and we are carrying on the noble tradition of truth in British history. The stones and monuments are where the ancient manuscripts tell us they should be and the site of every battle and, indeed, every significant historical event can be tracked down using the same information. What is good for Britain is good for America too, as we discovered. Riddles in the ancient poetry and other stories became clear when we understood that Madoc, and Arthur, had indeed engaged upon a very real voyage to the otherworld.

As a result, we now know the true story of Madoc in America and the detailed evidence is truly remarkable. We are making progress on all fronts and we have archaeological, documentary, oral, radiocarbon dated and other evidence to support our case.

[Bart]

English And Welsh Are Races Apart

BBC ^ | 6-30-2002

Posted on 07/04/2002 5:27:12 PM PDT by blam

Sunday, 30 June, 2002, 15:31 GMT 16:31 UK

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century.

Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English

It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.

And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

Academics at University College in London comparing a sample of men from the UK with those from an area of the Netherlands where the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have originated found the English subjects had genes that were almost identical.

But there were clear differences between the genetic make-up of Welsh people studied.

The research team studied the Y-chromosome, which is passed almost unchanged from father to son, and looked for certain genetic markers.

Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds

They chose seven market towns mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086 and studied 313 male volunteers whose paternal grandfather had also lived in the area.

They then compared this with samples from Norway and with Friesland, now a northern province of the Netherlands.

The English and Frisians studied had almost identical genetic make-up but the English and Welsh were very different.

The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.

Dr Mark Thomas, of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL, said their findings suggested that a migration occurred within the last 2,500 years.

Genetic links

It reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons.

In April last year, research for a BBC programme on the Vikings revealed strong genetic links between the Welsh and Irish Celts and the Basques of northern Spain and south France.

It suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.

The UCL research into the more recent Anglo-Saxon period suggested a migration on a huge scale.

"It appears England is made up of an ethnic cleansing event from people coming across from the continent after the Romans left," he said.

Celtic Britons

Archaeologists after the Second World War rejected the traditionally held view that an Anglo-Saxon invasion pushed the indigenous Celtic Britons to the fringes of Britain.

Instead, they said the arrival of Anglo-Saxon culture could have come from trade or a small ruling elite.

But the latest research by the UCL team, "using genetics as a history book", appears to support the original view of a large-scale invasion of England.

It suggests that the Welsh border was more of a genetic barrier to the Anglo-Saxon Y chromosome gene flow than the North Sea.

Dr Thomas added: "Our findings completely overturn the modern view of the origins of the English."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/711000/posts

[Diving Doc]

That reinforces what I always thought about the Welsh, Celtic, and Norse language links. Thanks, that was a very good post.
Regards,
Doc