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[Wopper]

Greetings to everyone,

I have spent the better part of the last ten years of my life doing research on the Jesuits of New Spain.  While doing so, I have come across evidence of not only the Jesuits writing in code, but also evidence of Jesuits being involved with mining activities.  I know a lot of people have been asking and searching for this evidence, and a lot of people don't believe it exists.  I'm now at a point where I'm willing to share a little bit of this information, but not too much mind you, because I'm in the process of writing a book.  I will start out with proof that the Jesuits were writing in code, and I will add more in the following days.

Sincerely,

Wopper

The Jesuits were ordered to write in code, and that order came down in 1662, a 105 years before their expulsion!  I submit to you the following from the book titled Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northern New Spain by Charles W. Polzer as evidence:

On page 62 begins the regulations made by the Visitors General for the whole Province, and by the Provincials for the Missions, in the year of 1662. On page 69, is regulation #17 and it reads as follows:

Quote;
Inasmuch as possible Ours will avoid writing letters to Ours complaning about the laity. If a letter has to be written, let it be so done that, even if lost or opened, the person about whom the letter was written could not understand it. The same caution is to be observed when writing the Provincial about things that must be dealt with secretly because experience has shown the contrary practice creates grave inconveniences.
Unquote.

[Tayopa]

Igerent pesen!   If this is sample of your research ---sheehs.  Next you will be extolling the virtues of the Lost Dutchman, you BB follower, or even worse,trying to prove that the Jesuits were actually mining in the south west.

Every one, including Father Polzer, a  former friend, now involved in the big sleep,  knows that they didn't have a pot to err , ah,  in,  when they were rounded up.   I suppose that next you will be claiming that the legendary lost Tayopa, Las Pimas, La Tarasca, La Gloria Pan, Tepoca, and the Virgin de Guadalupe Jesuit mines actually existed.  you are just as bad as Tayopa.

K convince me!  I promise to use rational reasoning, even give you the benefit of the doubt occasionally..

Don Jose de La Mancha   - - -  El Devil's Advocate

[Gollum]

Greetings Wopper,

I dearly love that you have used Father Polzer SJ's own writings to show that everything he stated about the order is not completely beyond question. He was quite game to state that the Order never mined in the New World prior to their expulsion.

I am one of those that have always believed that the Jesuits operated both Schools of Mining and Mines themselves in Pimeria Alta. The greatest majority of tales and fables usually have some basis in fact (some more, some less). Tales of Jesuit Treasure and Lost Mines are no different.

A  story that comes to mind is a recent one about Greek Tales of a battlefield that was as red as blood,

According to the historian Plutarch (c. AD 100), a conspicuous bone bed on the Aegean island of Samos was called Panaima (�Bloodbath�, or �Bloody Battlefield�). The name designated a large flat surface of red soil where immense skeletons continually weather out. According to myth, a violent battle between the god Dionysus�s war elephants and an army of Amazons took place here, and the bloodshed was so great that the earth was stained red. Notably, the ancient Greek name for the landmark, �Bloody Battlefield�, was still preserved on seventeenth century Italian maps of Samos, with the Latin name Guerrarii, �Battlefield�.

This story was long thought to be total confabulation, until recently when a large fire on the island exposed the bright red earth, and closer examination revealed large fossil beds there as well. Another Greek Fable (according to archaeologists), proven to have a basis in fact.

Best-Mike

[fleamistress]

Igerent pesen!   If this is sample of your research ---sheehs.  Next you will be extolling the virtues of the Lost Dutchman, you BB follower, or even worse,trying to prove that the Jesuits were actually mining in the south west.

Every one, including Father Polzer, a  former friend, now involved in the big sleep,  knows that they didn't have a pot to err , ah,  in,  when they were rounded up.   I suppose that next you will be claiming that the legendary lost Tayopa, Las Pimas, La Tarasca, La Gloria Pan, Tepoca, and the Virgin de Guadalupe Jesuit mines actually existed.  you are just as bad as Tayopa.

K convince me!  I promise to use rational reasoning, even give you the benefit of the doubt occasionally..

Don Jose de La Mancha   - - -  El Devil's Advocate

Not an advocate but the devil himself!

You should win the contest with this one. 

[Tayopa]

HI LUV:  I am not in the runnnig for the arrow head, as much as I would love to have it.  sigh.  That is for the other members or visitors in here.

My primary interest is to establish through logic and physical data the possibility  that  the Jesuits were actually engaged in mining.  It is a known fact  that they "were" in the old world, so it isn't  stretching  common sense or logic to assume that they cntinued to do so in the new one.

How else to explain the massive amounts of money  etc. that They were known to hand out lavishly in order to further their cause and Order?

But this is up to whopper, gollum and the others to prove within a reasonable doubt that they did indeed mine in the new world.

As for being the Devil himself, sheehs   and here my initiales are  "J C",  I am close,  but not there just yet, just  a simple SAINT!.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Wopper]

Howdy Gollum,

I dearly love that you have used Father Polzer SJ's own writings to show that everything he stated about the order is not completely beyond question. He was quite game to state that the Order never mined in the New World prior to their expulsion.
 

If my research has taught me anything, it is "pay attention to what comes out of the horses mouth."  It appears that Farther Polzer S.J. had two main jobs or goals in his life. One of those goals was to see to it that Father Kino AKA the Padre on horse back, (take a good look at my avatar) would be canonized and become a Saint. Although my research has come up with evidence to the contrary, it appears that Farther Kino will be made a Saint in 2011, 300 years after his death, which in itsself is another story. Polzer's other main goal or job was to dispute any claims or stories pertaining to Jesuit lost Missions, mines or teasures, and it is obvious that he was quite good at both. I know of a lot of treasure hunters who were turned off by Father Polzer's writings, when in reality his as well as several other Jesuits writings are the best avenues for information. It is information straight from the horses mouth, and all of the evidence that I will put forth will be just that.

Sincerely,

Wopper

[Gollum]

Hey Wopper,

I must have spent 10-15 minutes looking at your avatar trying to figure it out. I hate those tiny pics. After reading your post, I saw the shadow figure as soon as I looked at it again.

Amazing

Best-Mike

[Wopper]

Howdy Gollum,

I'm glad that you find the shadow in my avatar amazing. Here is something that is even more amazing. That shadow is but a part of a more complex set of shadows that appear on a boulder during both the Vernal, and autumnal equinox.

Sincerely,

Wopper

[Tayopa]

HI wooper:  clarify if possible, unless it may jeopardize any project that you may be on. Interesting.

The Jesuits did use bias relief illuminated by the rising sun on certain days. There is a cave similar to this up at Tayopa down in a deep barranca.  This cave was important to them for some reason not yet understood. When the Apaches drove the Jesuits out in the 1600's, they in turn used the cave until the 1800's..

The Jesuits cut natural configurations to show a skull on the cliff above on the first morning's  sun rays on a certain date.  A few days earlier or later, and it was not visable.

My Tiger found it by accident.  We were looking for data and taking pictures for reference when the morning sun illuminated the Skull.   

We mentioned it back at Cerochito, where upon they became excited and wanted to know whet it was ??  For some reason my short term memory failed me  sniff.

It is very hard to access, but quite possible.  Some day I shall investigate it.

Incidentally,  I later learned from the Apaches that it was a hiding place for them, that in the interior were stored large amounts of weapons and dried food, To the rear was a no. of large cowhide bags full of heavy materiel, they weren't interested - but I am..

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Wopper]

Howdy Jose,

I will share as much as I can, but I will not be going into specifics about the projects that I'm currently involved with at this time. I have in my library a $600.00 copy of a book that was written by a Jesuit of Paris, in 1749, it is titled "The Practice of Perspective: or, an Easy Method of Representing Natural Objects According to the Rules of Art" The author is unknown. Part V. is titled Methods of Finding According to the Laws of Perspective, the Natural Shadows of Objects Both by the Sun, Candle, Torch, and Lamp. Believe me, everything you ever wanted to know about shadow casting is in this book.

All I can tell you at this time is "the shadow casting I have discovered dealing with the project I'm currently working on, is absolutely astounding artwork." Everything the Jesuits did pertaining to this site, is exquisite. When you see it, there is no mistaking it for what it might be. There is no need for you to have to use your imagination, or cock your head and hold your bottom lip just right in order to see it. This includes the monuments, trail markers, carvings, and shadow signs.  All of this, without a doubt is a lost art today.

The equinox stone is not the only stone in play here, we also have what maybe the only summer, and winter solstice sunset alignment stone known to exist.  This one stone was used as an alpha, and omega by the Jesuits.  The summer sunset alignment takes you to the beginning of the monument trail, and the winter sunset alignment takes you to the end of the monument trail.  I will include a picture of the winter solstice sunset hitting the top of the alignment stone.

Jose, you or anybody else who is a member of this forum, are more than welcome to stop by and access my library for research.

Sincerely,

Wopper

[Bart]

Welcome Wopper, I hope your participation continues to be informative and educating.

I do have a question re: your avatar, and you must consider my lack of experience with the American Southwest coming into play here. What I see in your avatar is the shadow of a man astride a horse. Is that what you desired to be represented there? Are you somehow associating this shadow with mining, Spanish, or Jesuits in some way? If so, the connection escapes me.

While I do not have a problem understanding the directional indications of equinox shadows for large stones, I am puzzled by the significance of shadows for smaller rocks that can be moved by people, earth tremors, or other means. It seems to me that these couldn't have significance lasting hundreds of years, perhaps not even weeks. Am I missing something, or seeing too much?

Bart

[Wopper]

Howdy Bart,

I will attempt to answer your questions as best I can. But please keep in mind that I'm writing a book, and I don't wish to spoil it before I get it published. So if I appear to be a bit evasive at times, please forgive me.

You are correct, What you see in my avatar is the shadow of a man astride a horse. At this time, I have no doubt whatsoever that it represents a Jesuit Padre on horseback.  It might represent the Padre Eusebio Francisco Kino S.J., but I have no way of knowing that for certain. Kino was famous in his own time for travelling so far and wide on horseback, and founding 22 Missions in the process. Herbert Eugene Bolton wrote a book about Kino titled, "The Padre On Horseback." But the fact of the matter is every Padre travelled about on horseback, so there is no way of knowing for sure who it is representing. I am not associating this shadow with mining. I am associating this shadow with the Jesuits, and a hidden treasure!

Bart, you are missing something, but seeing too little. As I stated above, this shadow is but a small part of a much more complex set of shadows. They are in fact the final signs, or instructions before reaching the treasure cache site. These shadows are located upon a boulder that weighs tons, and its not going anywhere any time soon. If it did move, we would lose the alignment and angle with the sun on the equinox along with the shadows. I will include one more photo which shows a skull and a five pointed star, the meaning of the star I will keep to myself at this time. But for those that have a copy of Charles A. Kenworthy's book on Spanish death traps to treasure, will want to compare this skull to the one in his book which he acquired from Spains archives. In this case, the skull is warning of a death trap.

Sincerely,

Wopper

[fleamistress]

Wopper, meet "JC."  JC, meet Wopper.

Wopper, I believe you mentioned the "skull" in two contexts, one being a death trap warning.

What would be the other?

Meanwhile, with standing on my head and what-not I do not see the Star.

About he man on the horse:  I don't think it is a horse; a pack mule perhaps?  And the head covering--is it possible to date that style of dress?

Where are you, or, more importantly, this library of yours?  I would LOVE to peruse that book on art!  I am no stranger to the topic but that shadow chapter is intriguing the hell out of me.



Cheers,

[Gollum]

Hey Cyn,

The Jesuits were masters at using shadows to form symbols and signs. After all, it was the Jesuits who taught mining and monumenting to the Spanish in the New World.

As engineers, they were second to none.

Take another for instance: My avatar. The 50ft tall heart carved into the bedrock on the side of a mountain. This sign faces directly East. Before 10AM, the sun shines directly at the sign, and no shadows are in the cut groove that forms the outline of the heart, making the heart invisible.

There are also a set of large boulders placed over the left lobe of the heart. As the sun moves through the sky, it moves over the left side of this mountain (over the left lobe). As this happens, those boulders cast a shadow over the heart (after about 2:30PM). once again, making it invisible. We know these boulders were placed there, because as Desert Varnish only forms on EXPOSED rock surfaces, all the boulders have Desert Varnish on the undersides of them, meaning that they were not original to their current location (moved there).

If you try to look at the heart from more than 15-20 degrees from either side, the outline basically disappears, and you can't see the heart unless you know it is there.



This is another way that shadows were used to both show off and hide monuments/symbols. I believe mine to be Spanish and not Jesuit, but I can't be completely certain, because there is a mine there (no longer in operation) named "Mission Mine". I have been told by a Historical Society Rep that a mining company found a gold mine at the site of what they thought to be an old mission. We can't know for certain, because the ruins were destroyed to build the modern mine complex. The last thing is that there was a Turtle Monument found in the vicinity in the late 1960s (I haven't seen it, but was shown the approximate location by the guy that saw it). SO...we have a heart, an old mine, and a turtle (mine, water, or trail designator) all within a five mile radius.

Best-Mike

[Wopper]

Howdy Fleamistress,

"JC" and I have met.

The skull, or the skull and cross bones can represent many things. Some early Jesuit crucifixes have a skull and cross bones, and it represents "victory over death." In our case, it was also used as an alpha and omega.

The star is just to the right of the eyes of the skull. You may not have noticed it because it is forming a tail, representing either a rising, or shooting star. Also the shadows are meant to be seen from further away.

The man on the horse is wearing the style of dress that the Jesuits wore, here are a few links to prove my point.

http://www.nps.gov/archive/tuma/Father_Kino.html

http://www.companysj.com/v194/padre.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=3cJ4KGUcwQsC&dq=padre+on+horseback&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=qRyu8wTFa6&sig=hvl44QNX3DSe-Om6I0do2_4cEkk

As far as where I am, and wanting access to my library. Please email or PM me with your name and contact information, and I will get back to you.

Sincerely,

Wopper