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[Gollum]

First, let me say that I pained over how detailed to make this thread. Too much information, and any lay person would be overwhelmed, and would soon lose interest. Too little information, and much of the reason for this thread would not be realized.

SO, after reading this, if you have any questions, please ask. I will be more than happy to answer anything I can.

MOST of the information for this has come from the English translation of the definitive book on Ancient European Mining Techniques; Georgius Agricola's 1556 masterpiece, "De Re Metallica". Some of the information has come from other sources that are specific to the New World, and still other information has come from personal experience in uncovering some sealed Spanish Mines.

Bart,

Let me start with a clarification on my last post to you in the Tayopa Thread. I told you that the tailing pile was approximately 150,000 cubic feet of detritus. It is very difficult to grasp the actual amount involved (unless you deal with dirt or gravel loading at work). The Standard Bed 2006 Ford F150 Pickup Truck has a bed capacity of 65 cubic feet. That is the equivalent of a little over 2300 pickups full of dirt and rock. Imagine how big the hole, or deep the shaft to leave a pile of dirt that big!

One of the pieces of knowledge I lacked until fairly recently, was just exactly what a wandering prospector would look for that would indicate a certain mountain contained precious metals, and the one next to it did not. A friend I knew peripherally, was an old time Rock Hound and Prospector. I took him out to the desert to one of my monument sites, and in return, he showed me everything I needed to know to become a prospector. I am by no means an expert in that field, but I know what to look for, and what the Spanish would have looked for. This helps me to know whether or not a certain place might be conducive to having a mine nearby.

In "de Re Metallica", Agricola shows some old miners' tricks for finding a veins of gold and silver:
"But by skill we can also investigate hidden and concealed veins, by observing in the first place the bubbling waters of springs, which cannot be very far distant from the veins because the source of the water is from them"

What this explains, in simple terms, is that deposits of precious metals, are formed when geothermal vents, push hot water up through cracks and fissures in the earth towards the surface. This water carries with it MANY different minerals. As the water gets closer to the surface (and further away from  its' source of heat), it begins to cool. As it does, the minerals which are carried in the water start to solidify. The ones that require a higher temperature to melt, solidify first, and the minerals which melt at lower temperatures, solidify last. Take the three minerals we are most interested in (Quartz, silver, and gold). Because quartz is MUCH harder than both silver and gold, and requires a higher temperature to stay liquid, as the water cools, it turns solid first, and forms what you see as veins in the rock.



Silver is harder than gold, and requires higher temps to stay liquid, so as the quartz has turned solid, the silver is squeezing up through the gaps in the quartz, and the silver molecules gather unto each other, forming pockets of silver.



And finally, after the other minerals which are harder and require more heat to stay liquid harden, the gold molecules are gathering unto each other like the silver molecules have done previously, leaving pockets and veins of gold. Gold is most often associated (in vein form) with the mineral quartz. In this example, see how quartz has filled up all th efractures in the rock, leaving the gap for the vein of gold to form:



"Secondly, by examining the fragments of the veins which the torrents break off from the Earth, after a long time, some of these fragments are again buried in the ground. Fragments of this kind lying about on the ground, if they are rubbed smooth, are a long distance from the veins, because the torrent, which broke them from the vein, polished them while it rolled them a long distance, but if they are fixed to the ground or are rough, they are closer to the vein."

This is called "FLOAT". A simpler explanation is that when outcroppings of veins are weathered away, and washed downhill, the smaller nuggets of gold and silver gather in the alluvial dirt, when the water slows down enough, that the weight of the metal is higher than the force of the water, and it sinks to the bottom. The smoother the nuggets are, the further they are away from the vein.

"Further we search for the veins by observing the hoar-frosts, which whiten all herbage EXCEPT that growing over the veins, because the veins emit a warm and dry exhalation which hinders the freezing of the moisture, for which reason such plants appear rather wet than whitened by the frost. This may be observed in all cold places before the grass has grown to it's full size, as in the months of April and May, or when the hay is  first cut in the month of September. "

What this "EXHALATION" is, we do not know for certain. It could well be the higher conductivity and heat transference of the metal in the vein.

"Lastly, there are trees in the Springtime whose foliage is bluish or leaden tint, the upper branches being tinged with black or any other unnatural colour, the trunks cleft in two, and the branches black or discoloured. These phenomenae are caused by the intensly hot and dry exhalations which do not spare even the roots, but scorching them, and render the trees sickly; where fore the wind will more frequently uproot trees of this kind than any others. Verily, the veins do emit this exhalation. Therefore, in a place where there is a multitude of trees, and a long row of them, at an unusual time, lose their verdure (color) and become black or discolored, and frequently fall over by the violence of the wind, beneath this spot is a vein. Likewise, along a course where the vein extends, there grows a certain herb or funguswhich is absent from the adjacent space, or sometimes even from the neighborhood of the veins. By these signs of nature, a vein can be discovered."

This exhalation was thought by the Medievil Miners, to be the same exhalation as the previous one. It is not. We know what causes this "exhalation." It is the high amount of poisonous elements associated with gold, silver, lead, and platinum. For instance, gold ore is most often rich with the element Arsenic. The toxins present in the metals, pollute the ground surrounding the veins, causing the surrounding plants and trees to become deformed and stunted. Another example of this, is when you have Pine Trees where the Pine Cones only grow close to the trunk. This means that the tree is unhealthy. Another sign of a vein in the vicinity. Another metallic substance associated with precious metals is mercury. This will also poison the surrounding area,, killing all the plant life.

An example of a plant that thrives around veins is Sulphur Weed. When you find sulphur weed growing profusely along a hillside in rocky terrain, you will likely find a vein of silver nearby.

More to follow tomorrow.

Best,

Mike

[MesaBuddy]

Here's some "Sulphur Weed" in the natural , nevermind about the carved rock in the back ground
Warm Regards
Buddy Arnold

[Gollum]

Hey Buddy,

And let me guess..........was that picture taken somewhere South of Tucson?

Kind of looks like a butterfly on it's side, as well.

Best,

Mike

[MesaBuddy]

No Mike ! , actually it is a new site I have found less than 5 miles from my house in Northeast Mesa , near the Salt river , seems that there is a lot of Silver still there , am researching the monuments , trying to figure out what they are telling me
Heres some Cinnabar for ya ! (Mercury Sulfide) the red material , silver is the black material
Best Regards
Buddy Arnold

[MesaBuddy]

This guy here is a real "Poser" he climbed down the side of a cliff to get his picture taken!!!
Notice the very rich Mercury Sulfide hes on top of
Best Always
MesaB

P.S. I will put up some pixs of my south of Tucson area soon , this site here seems to be a nice forum where people put there heads together to figure things out

[Diving Doc]

Thanks for the pictures Buddy.
Cheers,
Doc

[Gollum]

P.S. I will put up some pixs of my south of Tucson area soon , this site here seems to be a nice forum where people put there heads together to figure things out

I thought I told you that a long time ago!
Mike

[Bart]

For what it's worth, here is something I bumped into today. It appears to be something oft repeated and believed, possibly a quote from a book. It has names and places, and may turn into something of interest.

- Bart

There are many legends of hidden mines and caches of gold associated with various missions. Numerous expeditions have gone in search of the lost treasures and some have purportedly found their bounty. Even the Jesuit church has tried to claim the treasure caches. It was reported that the Treasure of Tayopa was discovered in the Sierra Madre Mountains. One of the first outsiders on site was Father Charles Polzer, SJ. Father Polzer and a companion went to Mexico to claim the treasure for the church, however the Mexican government had already decided otherwise and they were asked to leave Mexico. Another prominent treasure was the Jesuit Treasure of Sacambaya River. The Monastery of Plazuela on the Sacambaya River had cached gold and silver for approximately 11 years before the Spanish King sent in an expedition to collect ?his? treasure. The expedition found no priests and the Indians of the region would not admit to gold or silver being located in the area, even under torture and death. However in about 1928, Dr. Edgar Sanders left England and went back to Bolivia for a second time to open the cache of the Monastery of Plazuela that he felt he had found during his previous trip to the area. The results of that expedition are very hazy but after that final visit to the monastery he retired into obscurity.

The above treasure discussions are only samples of the many Jesuit treasure legends that have survived the last two centuries since the time of the Expulsion. The Jesuits were very cunning in their concealment of their treasure caches and created sophisticated stone maps to lead them back to the caches after they were reinstated in the Church. Stone was used much as the Egyptians and the Mayas used stone to insure the map?s continued existence. These maps have continued to elude the best treasure hunter?s attempts at deciphering their secrets.

[MesaBuddy]

Now your talking Bart! its funny that you mentioned Dr. Sanders I had completely forgotten about him and just what did he find to be able to fade into obscurity ? , a large cache would be my guess
Had a very close friend that got me involved in all of this sign/monument/cache chasing and needless to say after his last trip down south he retired into obscurity to
Best
Buddy

[Diving Doc]

Hey Mesa,
Why don't you add the particulars?
This whole thread is  fascinating!
Cheers,
Doc

[MesaBuddy]

Sheesh Doc , I am posting way to much as it is ! , I am one of those keep it to yourself Jesuit hunters !
Best
Buddy Arnold

[Diving Doc]

Sheeeesh Pilgrim,
If you walk the walk,                           
You  talk the talk,
 
Doc

[Bart]

Thanks Mesa.

Some comments on the 'Keep it to yourself' attitude and metality. Here in the US, that sort of thinking is born out of necessity. The laws re: treasure trove are ambiguous at best, or non-existent. The attitude toward such things by all, Govt and citizens alike, is totally different than in Britain. Many stories exist of found treasure being turned in because someone in authority said they must, and the finder is out of the picture entirely with nothing to show for it. Worse, the treasure itself  'disappears', there is no 'official' report, record, or evidence for it, and the posessor tells the finder to 'prove' it.  I can easily understand the 'keep it to yourself' thing. I'm sure we have all heard such stories.

Some view the whole matter as might makes right, like a feeding frenzy of sharks, the biggest, meanest one in authority takes and keeps the prize. Nothing is out of bounds in this regard, law is ignored or thrown out, anything is said and done to posess the prize, lies, theft, and murder not uncommon occurrences. Sol mentioned that Maritime law is ambiguous by design, just the way the authorities like it', words to that effect. That seems to be the way this matter is also.

I really don't see that a Federal law similar to Great Britain's will ever come into being in the US. States already have laws on the books regarding trove, but that is only for finds on state land. The Federal Gov't owns 90% * (*citation needed) of the land in western states, and they also have laws regarding trove and artifacts found on land under their authority.

The only solution a finder is forced into is to 'keep it to themselves'. To keep it TO yourself is to the only way to keep it FOR yourself. Even if you take the treasure home, and be fortunate enough to find a way to sell it to get a good price, and you shoot your mouth off about it, there is an excellent chance that your doors will be kicked in, your treasure, in whatever current form, will disappear, AND,  some, many, or all, of the rest of your posessions will be confiscated with no hope of you ever getting them back. Not even AFTER your 20 year prison sentence for some law violation. Which law? Doesn't matter, one or more of the eight million will apply at a judge's interpretation and discretion.

 'Finders keepers' has fallen by the wayside in the past 2 decades or so. It worked well for about 200 years here, despite the aftermath of whining and jealousy, the envy and hatred, which have now taken over and are more or less codified. Land of the free? Stop kidding yourself. You can be walking down the street and be thrown in the can for not speaking to an authority, it is called obstructing. Free speech includes the right not to speak? Stop kidding yourself.

So much history has been lost that will never be recovered, even if only 5% of the stories are true. History in this regard means, artifacts in context, in situ, and archaeology and all that is entailed. But I guess that's the way they like it.

Enforcement is another issue here, regarding current and any future law. It can be summed up quite easily as virtually impossible. Thousands and thousands of square miles of empty trackless land is the greatest reason for that. Will education solve the issues? Not likely, the US doesn't have much of a track record in the education department. It uses authority and law to settle issues that arise, and example. The general example that most here see today is basically every man for himself, hope you don't get caught, and the devil take the hindmost. And they say this is a civilized nation. I think history may view things a bit differently down the road.  

Does that about sum it up Mesa? Feel free to add your 'two cents' worth.

- Bart

[MesaBuddy]

Doc you crack me up!!
Bart how true , I will let you in on a little secret , I found a place and some things in southern Arizona back in 80 , I almost wound up in prison , luckily I had money at the time from my business to get me out of most of the trouble , but it was a lesson well learned
Now if they were to change the laws here I will guarantee that people would share their finds and some of the books would have to be re written
Best Regards
Buddy

[Diving Doc]

Buddy,
Is it safe now to tell that tale? At least share the laugh with us.

Doc