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[kamban]

 First,Pardon my language ; im not english, but you may understand

I wonder how to best retrieve a bunch of rifles that was buried during ww2 by my gr,grandfather. They did not find  them themselves after the war as the germans left.

But they remembered roughly where of course. Problem is, it is inside or nearby a large stonetip, and yhese stones are probably quite mineralised, and on top of this it has been used as a garbage tip for scrap metals, paintboxes etc. I have tried with an ordinary detector set so it should not respond to small targets, but it's rather hopeless. Anyway , they dont go so deep after all, but I coould have a chanse if it was not so trashy and they were not to deep, and if they were not inside the stone tip.

So I have been thinking of Pi detectors and 2 box detectors. It might seem like the Pi detectors can punch trough such mineralized rocks and go deep, but what about these 2 box detectors, do they have any chance on going deep trough a stone heap, with metaltrash in it ??..as they seem to be based on the same technology as ordinary detectors ?? On their pro is that they are not so expensive, and it could be interesting to add such an imagening device, logger.

Since some of these probably are old and collectibles it could maybe be financially rewarding to retrieve it, also invest in device,. but it's a gamble. I therfore would like to ask if anybody in here could have any good advices how to perform such a task and what equipment to use ?

[Bart]

Hi Kamban, welcome to History Hunters!

You're gr.grandfather? My gr.grandfather was born about 1860, and died in 1949. How old was he when this cache was buried?

You have presented an interesting and difficult situation, but probably not an impossible one. If you are truly determined to find this cache, it can be done, but it will take time.

It appears that you believe your information to be quite reliable, and that is a good start. How were these items stored? In what condition do you expect to find them, good working order, or rusted and in need of restoration? Or rusted and in need of disposal? These are important questions you must consider before proceeding.

Next you must address the laws of Norway in this matter, you must know what the laws are regarding private property, weapons, possession and sale of such items, and everything related to them. Yes, it could be valuable, but value will depend most of all upon their condition. Possessing them could also get you sent to prison. Finding a cache of this type today may not be such a great thing, it may bring much difficulty upon you. It is in your best interest to know these things, and perhaps you already do.

If the laws prevent you from handling, possessing, or selling these items, it is best that you turn your information over to the proper authorities. This would save you all the expense, and you would most likely receive all the credit for the find.

In the situation you describe here, you are using the wrong tools altogether, as you are finding out. Any metal detector is going to be virtually useless in the scenario you describe. The best tool to use would be GPR, Ground Penetrating Radar. If you cannot buy a good unit, perhaps hiring someone with GPR is an option for you to consider.

If you insist on doing this yourself, and using a metal detector, you would most likely need to remove all the trash first. It may take a long time and involve some expense, but it is probably necessary in this case. A two-box detector will not help at all here, because there is too much trash and the cache may be too deep to detect. Be smart, be safe, and have fun.

Bart

[kamban]

Hi, and thanks for your prompt and detailed answer

..altough you kind of blew the hope I had in that a 2 box might be usable, as that was affordable to me. Such a GPR have I no idea if it is for hire here in this country. To buy one,well, .....

You are right about the legal issues, functioning guns are rather strictly licensed, but older blackpowder types are free to own without modifications. And of course there is a chance they are quite rusty now, though I think they were  somehow wrapped by the time of burial. But maybe not with the intention of 70 years hiding away
Its the "newer" types aka Mauser types that might be a legal problem, but they have no greater interest whatsoever. But some real old ones presumably went down with them which is then interesting.

It's on a relatives property, so he wanted me to find them when finding out about my detector, so that's no problem so far. But easier said than done. He has been told by the older ones roughly where it is long time ago, so i ask, is it inside the stone tip, yah probably or maybe not, but somewhere in or around it is. How deep ? I guess no more than 2 - 3 m. But the problem is to see trought this big stone tip without ruining oneself. Its in here the metal trash is too. The land around is rather trash free, but a common detector does not go deep enough. So what do I do ?

Start saving for a GPR ?

Buy a Discovery, and hope its not inside the stones ?

Or just dowse with a hazle rod, and forget about it, maybe. Whatever it is, I dont think it can pay for a GPR, if there is not some affordable ones  out there??? Far as I know not even the local dept of "The Reichantiquar" can afford having such a piece of equipment of their own, but maybe they have missed out on something on the market.

[Baja Bush Pilot]

Kamban...  Welcome to History Hunters!  The best of luck with your search.  I think it is possible, assuming you have all your legalities in order, that if you put your information in the right place, you might find someone willing to provide the right equipment for a piece of the pie.  I don't know where the right place is, but posting here on HHI is a good start.  If you could be willing to share the find in exchange for the right help, who knows?

My grandfather, born in 1862 in Mississippi, told me stories about his father and family fighting in our Civil War in the 1800s.  After the South surrendered, they engaged in guerilla warfare against the occupying union troops.  They were not allowed to own weapons and eventually buried all their arms, wrapped in oilcloth and in wooden boxes.  He said he could show me where, but he was very old and I was very young and he passed away before it happened.  I have spent many months trying to figure out where they might be, but I can't even find the location of the old house that burned down shortly after my father was born in 1911.  Probably nothing left anyway. 

You have a much better chance of finding them than I do.  Good hunting!   

[Bart]

Perhaps we could suggest places from where Kamban could receive help or advice on how to proceed here, and without giving away information that would allow someone to 'steal' the cache from him. My first suggestion is to call the nearest University and speak with someone in the Archaeology Dept. Kamban could describe the scenario and ask for advice on how to proceed, what the laws might be, etc. If anyone else has suggestions, please post them here.

"NORWAY

Section 4 of the Cultural Heritage Act 1978 lists a wide range of specified objects, both fixed and movable, dating from before 1937 which are protected.

Section 3 also provides protection from unauthorised excavation. The ownership of all objects older than 1537 and of coins older that 1650 is vested in the State (Section 12, a and b). Section 13 requires that all finds should be reported to the authorities who will fix a suitable reward. There is no specific reference to metal detectors."

I am not sure what the above information on Noway means specifically in Kamban's case, but it is a start. If the Univ. Archaeological Dept. is unable to answer your questions satisfactorily, you may wish to call a large museum, or a museum associated with WWII artifacts.

Please let us know what happens Kamban! Good luck!

Bart

[Solomon]

Sure thing, Bart.

If a GPR is the best instrument to use, then as Kamban says, it's too expensive to buy, especially for one job of low financial potential. GPR is probably used by a number of companies and institutions in the area, such as geosurveyors and as you say, universities. Try approaching them.

The kit requires specialist training in both its use and in interpreting the data. Hire of kit and operator by the day is probably the best approach.

On the other hand, the police would probably use GPR to find bodies. They may also have an interest in the firearms. Perhaps they would do the work for and with you.

Good hunting!
Solomon

[kamban]

The police...

I guess its my uncles cache then, and its rather in eyesight so a little difficult to search trough and find without permission and nobody noticing. And as you guys point out, it's a fair chance its rusted , so it could be a rather waste of time for strangers recovering illegal, better time spent on the job maybe. So its his property as good as when they were hanging on his grandf. wall 68 years ago, they never left the farm. So if he would allow anybody else than me to steal it, Im just as curious to see what it is. i have a few of these old shotguns, about 140 years old, guess they are not worth more than 700 usd each. Probably then its not the treasure of the templars excactly , but if there are guns going back to 16 - 1700's not to bad condition of course it could be something,, the farm is old as hell, viking and stone age artifact are found now and then, but then we are talking Das Reichantiquar, then he is upon you, you better not find any of these, it can ruin you as a landowner in worst case scenario, well only if you have a project going on, you must pay the excavations and delays It's very counterproductive laws, hundres of artifacts are put away by farmers every year, as before it was the greatest pride for a landowner to find some real old piece on his land, now its spooky at least.

But to the mentioned cache, there are sure hundreds of them around, if you hand in regsiter, or desarm the "modern" rifles its no problem. Pre 1881 weapons and blackpowder types are non restricted. Revolvers are pre 1871. But , jeezus , think If I sold my car and house and bought a GPR just to find a heap of rusty Mausers, even if my uncle promised there were some real old clenodiums in there. You know it could be a very subjectiv opinion, iex refering to those we alreday have, they are not THAT rare, nope, more or less what every peasant were waving around 130 years ago, including us, maybe giving a few hundred dollars in good condition.

Well talk of the Templars I did. Long time ago 12-1300 a nobleman build his own "avalon" , a castle in a lake some miles souyh of here. A piece showed up in the papers last year proclaming he was a templar and hiding treasures around here, hahaha. But well, he did strike a deal with the notorius Phillip Le Belle in the 1290's revealing him for 6000 punds sterling silver, maybe he became angry. There is also found crossbiones and skulls underneath the castle remains. So who knows ..hahaha. Now Das Reichantiquar gets angry, there should have been used a GPR there. But the governments never will find the means or rather phantasy and initiative to do anything I guess. Excecuted he was said to have put away greattreasures as he possibly sensed the king found no more mercy with him then...mostly regarded as foklore and myth. another needle in the haystack, and 700 years old  I guess altough the phnatsies of this newspaper man might be a bit to colorful, as the templars were not dissolved until 1307, and then this guy was dead 5 years.

[Bart]

Here are two different companies you may wish to contact and get a quote from, it appears they both do GPR surveys for hire. It may be cheaper than selling the house and car.

Bart

Geological Survey of Norway, P.O. Box 3006, N7002 Trondheim, Norway

3D-Radar AS
Vestre Rosten 81
N-7075 Tiller, Trondheim, Norway
Tel: (+47) 72 89 32 00
Fax: (+47) 72 89 32 01
Email:
www.3d-radar.com

Then of course, there is eBay, where I found this. It may be worthwhile to check out different items there.

http://cgi.ebay.com/DEEPTECH-SDP-2014A-PULSE-INDUCTION-METAL-DETECTOR_W0QQitemZ330231220746QQihZ014QQcategoryZ58057QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem